Author Topic: New 17' wind turbine up and running!  (Read 3835 times)

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DanB

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New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« on: February 08, 2005, 05:18:31 PM »


Click Here to visit the full webpage I made at otherpower.com about building and raising this machine.


It's been a busy week preparing to raise my new 17' diameter wind turbine.  Thanks to lots of help from good freinds and neighbors and perhaps a bit of luck, we got her up yesterday.



First step was to take my old machine down, and improve the tower.  I welded lots more bracing to it and made it much more rigid than it used to be.  I had to add about 3' at the top of the tower so the longer blades would clear the guy wires.  We also added 3 new guy wires at the top.  All this took about 3 days.  Last Wednesday Rich came up and helped all day, mostly cutting pipe while I was welding it on.  George came up the following day and helped out for several hours.  Once we felt it was good, we first raised the tower with nothing on it.   I pull this up with my truck, and we had about 10" of snow in the area where my truck had to work.  With front tire chains, it was all my truck could do just to get the tower up with nothing on it!  (The engine was redlined, all 4 wheels spinning/throwing rocks etc... very exciting)  I was concerned because the completed machine weighs about 250 pounds, which hangs on the end of a 62' tower.  So.. the following day I went to town and got another set of chains hoping that maybe, with 4 chains I could pull the alternator up.  I tried pulling alternator up with all 4 chained on Saturday to no avail, the truck just spun out and started digging into the frozen ground.



On Sunday I set out to get as much wood as I could fit in the back of my truck for further traction.  Pictured above is the 'tractor' that pulls my tower.  With a load of wood and 4 chains, the alternator pulled up with no problems at all.



Our freind and neighbor Scott made the blades for me.  They're 8.5' long (for a 17' diameter), 6" wide at the tips, and about 14" wide at the root.  They're 2" thick.  He made them from laminated Cedar 2X4's.  He never weighed each blade which surprised me when I asked, because according to my 'primitive' UPS scale, they all weigh about exactly 14' 6oz.  I like having Scott make the blades, the cost is very reasonable and they come out really nice.  It also saves me a lot of time, and keeps a big mess from happening in my shop.  I just gave him some basic measurments and they came out exactly (better) than I planned for.  He said he had about 13 hours into making these which included time shopping for lumber and making jigs.



Here's a picture of the tips, you can see the shape of the airfoil.



Just for size referance!  Here we a South West Windpower Air 403 blade on top of a 10' dia blade on top of my new 17' diameter blade set.



The blades are sandwiched between two plywood hubs.  The hubs are 26" in diameter, made from 3/4" thick Baltic Birch plywood.  This plywood is super strong and rigid - it's a whole different ball of wax than 'normal' 3/4" ply, it's very strong and seems top hold up to the weather very well.



Here we're getting the blades assembled to the hub.  There are 3 1/2" bolts in each blade, and  90 wood screws holding it all together.   The blades were finished with linseed oil a few days ago, and here we've added another really thick coat.  We do this to all the wooden parts on the machine.



Here we're measuring tip to tip, making sure the blades are evenly spaced.  Once we got that perfect we tighten down the hubs and put all the screws in.



The alternator sits almost 8' from the ground, so the hood of my truck makes for a nice place to work while wiring things up and mounting the blades and tail.



With the hubs and hardware, this rotor weighs about 55 pounds.  It's rather big and cumbersome too...  pictured above Scott and George are bringing them over so we can bolt them on.



Here's a picture from the back, it's all ready to go!  Kind of the scary time - the machine seemed really big and heavy.  We added about 100 more pounds to the end of the tower here so I felt a bit worried about how it would raise.



There's a picture from the front.  I didn't want it too high up, so we balanced the blades here and had to tip the alternator a few degrees from vertical.  But it balanced quickly and easily.  We added about 8 oz of lead to the hub in one spot to get it seemingly perfect.  Not bad for a machine this size!



Thats how it looked this morning!  We worked till about 9:00 last night on my battery/inverter situation.  We've been running at 12 volts all along.  I felt this machine was too large for my 12 volts system to handle, so I purchased a couple more L16 batteries and a Trace 4000 watt 48 volt inverter.  So last night I made the upgrade to 48 volts!  Still some work to do, I have to reconfigure my solar panels.   It should be a real improvement in all respects.  


We've had almost no wind since we raised it - but it's been spending most of its time turning at about exactly cutin speed (80 rpm).  The breeze has come up a bit since then evidently.  It still seems perfectly still - no tree branches moving, none of the powdery snow is falling from the trees, but I'm seeing 2-4 amps pretty constantly (100  -200 Watts) which seems impressive to me.  I won't be surprised if it has some issues that need sorted out, but so far it's off to a good start.  It's very quiet and turns very slowly...  I'm dying for some breeze!


I started this project about 3 weeks ago and documented most of it as we moved along.  It went quickly - largely due to the vast amount of help from freinds and neighbors.


Click Here to see the first days progress where I mostly cut out the metal parts and started welding on the frame.


Click Here to see the second days work where we pretty much finished welding and started working on the magnet rotors.


On Day 3 We did some coil testing and got all the metal parts finished/painted.


Click Here to see day 4 when we pretty much finished the machine up.  It wasn't till then that I decided to replace my old 14' wind turbine with this one, and upgrade my whole house to 48 volts.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 05:18:31 PM by (unknown) »
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windstuffnow

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2005, 10:39:11 AM »
Nice job Dan!

   I'm looking forward to hearing about the output data you get from that beast.  Should be pretty impressive ideed!


Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 10:39:11 AM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

Flux

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2005, 10:39:46 AM »
Dan

That looks a real nice machine. I am sure you will find performance much better at the higher voltage.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 10:39:46 AM by Flux »

Shadow

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2005, 01:22:31 PM »
Very Nice Job Dan!  Getting very close with this one of mine,Doing some painting and detailing. What size wire do you have coming down the tower? Heres hoping the wind blows strong and steady for ya!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 01:22:31 PM by Shadow »

iFred

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2005, 02:09:31 PM »
Nice job guys!! I can't wait to hear the results of this beast! This this going to generate some nice nice power! Please keep us informed...


Good Goin!

« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 02:09:31 PM by iFred »

zubbly

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2005, 03:04:12 PM »
Hi Danb!


Fantastic job as always. I think this is the largest of the homebrew dual rotor machines i have seen here yet.


Just a couple questions if you have the time to answer.


#1  Do you still keep the same "formula" as you would use for smaller machines with the ratio of tail area to prop area?


#2  With the prop at 17 foot diam, do you trust the wooden plywood hub as much as you would with a smaller machine?  At this size, would you not feel more secure of prop structure with something like a 1/4 inch steel plate hub assembly?


#3  Is this machine also designed to furl out at approx 25mph?


#4  If it is 25 mph furling, what kw rating do you expect and approx what would the rpm of the machine be?


Always greatly enjoy your work and inspiration   :)


zubbly

« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 03:04:12 PM by zubbly »

Dave B

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2005, 03:18:24 PM »
Very nice Dan. What did you end up using as your yaw bearing for that 200+ lb machine ? Is there a twist in your blades or are they a set pitch ? I'm sure you'll keep us posted on the output / rpm and start up etc. Thank you for the great detail on your projects, you pave the way for us all. Dave B.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 03:18:24 PM by Dave B »
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DanB

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2005, 03:48:49 PM »
Hi Zubbly - it gets hard to be very specific because


  • my anemometer battery went dead and I forgot how to recalibrate it
  • even if it did work... what I see at the anemometer and what the wind turbine says are very different things.  It gets very hard to figure windspeed vs output data I think, without fancy measuring equipment.  With that said...


"#1  Do you still keep the same "formula" as you would use for smaller machines with the ratio of tail area to prop area?"


Pretty much, this is an exactly scaled up version of the smaller ones.  The tail occupies about 9 square feet.  The boom is 8.5' long (same as the blades) and the alternator is offset about 8.5".


"#2  With the prop at 17 foot diam, do you trust the wooden plywood hub as much as you would with a smaller machine?  At this size, would you not feel more secure of prop structure with something like a 1/4 inch steel plate hub assembly?"


We'll see.  I tend to trust it.  One thing to keep in mind is this runs very slowly compared to the 10' machines.  I've had good luck wth normal plywood hubs, and I expect this baltic birch is more than twice as strong.  Its not like normal plywood... you can't crush it at all when you tighten bolts against it.  I could be wrong on this... but I expect 1/4" steel might bend, before this stuff breaks.  I think the hub is very strong but time will tell.


"#3  Is this machine also designed to furl out at approx 25mph?"


approximately I would say - although usually they seem to start furling earlier for me, probably because I make the tails so light.  I like to start on the 'light side'.  This one appears to be furling in pretty low winds today.


"#4  If it is 25 mph furling, what kw rating do you expect and approx what would the rpm of the machine be?"


usually 'peak' power happens after they start furling.  This one seems to be starting to furl at about 1.5KW which is happening at 150 rpm.  If thats 25 mph.. then it's stalling badly, but I think its happening well below 25mph - and I think it's stalling 'mildly'.  I'll post more detail about what it seems to be doing in another comment...

« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 03:48:49 PM by DanB »
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DanB

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2005, 03:56:19 PM »
Hi Dave -


"What did you end up using as your yaw bearing for that 200+ lb machine ?"


I should've got a picture of all that.  The top of the tower has a thick flat steel surace (with a big hole in the middle for the wire).  The top of the wind turbine has a 1/2" thick steel 'washer' welded to it.  I put grease zircs along the sides, and top of the machine.  In between the top of the tower and the wind turbine I made a plastic bushing about 1/2" thick (with a hole for the wire) and 3" in diameter.  I think its nylon - but it might be delrin or something else.  Just a piece of lathe stock I had laying around.  Not sure how long it'll last - probably a while.  For now it yaws very easily.


"Is there a twist in your blades or are they a set pitch ?"


Im not sure I'd call it twist....  but the blade is tapered, and the pitch gets steeper along as we approach the root.  Its not the proper twisted exponential sort of thing most people do, it's very simple so that we can cut the front surface of the blade on a planer.  It's 3 deg at the tip, 6 deg at half the radius down to what the board thickness and the airfoil profile will allow.  But it is a flat surface, if you lay a straight edge anywhere on the front of the blade - at any angle, it will be flat.  I dont think this hurts it a great deal - and it makes the blades really easy/fast to make and strong.  Startup is definitely not a problem.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 03:56:19 PM by DanB »
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DanB

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a bit of data
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2005, 04:17:29 PM »
Very nice day - the sun came out and the breeze came up so I've been watching meters and playing with resistors all afternoon.


Overall, without having an anemometer, I think it's fairly excellent in low winds and 'fair' in higher winds - I believe it's leaning towards stall a bit, the TSR drops off as the windspeed goes up.


It's furling nicely in fairly low winds.  It starts furling at about 1.5KW output which happens a bit below 150 rpm.


It seems to be cutting in at 75 rpm.


Here's some rough data on what I've seen from it with out adding any resistance to the line.  So far -  the line is allready pretty resistive.  We have 3 strands of #10 down the tower (60' long) and 150' of 3 strands of #6 from there, to the rectifiers.  I expect if my line were heavier I'd have pretty dismal performance in higher winds.


This data is a bit rough because my ammeter and my frequency meter tend to respond slowly  Perhaps if I graphed all these things out on paper I could come up with a more accurate line - as it is I have some slight contradictions.


About 500 watts @ 90 rpm.

Right now we see about 600 Watts @100 rpm.



  1. - 1200 watts @ 135 rpm.
  2. watts @ 150 rpm
  3. watts @ 202 rpm, which is the most I've seen without adding resistance.


First I added a big 2 ohm resistor to the line which really sped things up a bunch and I saw over 3KW from it but it was scary fast.


I cut that down to 1/2 ohm, which sped it up noticably in higher winds (not at all in lower winds) =- perhaps about 20% faster and the best I saw was about 3.5 KW at around 300 rpm.  But.. it did run quite a lot faster in high winds and it didn't help at all in lower winds.  And... I don't think I really need that sort of power coming in anyhow - I'd rather have the peaceful, slow wind turbine at this time.  So I think I'll leave the machine as is without modification for now.  As it is, if it holds up - it will be very slow and seems pretty safe and it seems to be making power almost all the time, probably more than I can really use.  It's not even been 'windy' day - so I expect I'll see quite a bit more from it in the future.  I think its good as is... I'm all grins about it today.  If I wanted to gamble and create a 'monster' here - I could add some weight to the tail, and a half an ohm to the line and probably see lots more from it on windy days.  Im more worried about none windy days.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 04:17:29 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

johnlm

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2005, 08:37:21 PM »
Dan,

Nice work. After reading your information, if I may, I have an input / curiousity.

You said that the attack angle at the tip of the blade was 3 degrees and at the mid point it was 6 degrees.  If this is the absolute angle of slope, meaning there is no additional offsetting of the prop to add any additional angle of attack then I think  you have a very high apparent TSR prop.  As I understand it the angle of attack on your tip being 3 degrees gives a (1/tan 3 degrees) = 19:1 slope at the tip and at the midpoint (1/tan 6 degrees) = 9.5 : 1 slope. The tapering is consistant but as I understand it you have a tsr of 19.  Although you somewhat indicate you may be stalling the prop by stiff loading, I wonder if the prop is really trying to run quite a bit faster than your loading will allow.  I may be all wrong here and if so tell me but a 3 degree attack angle at the tip and 6 degrees at the 1/2 radius point is pretty shallow.  Am I all screwed up on my thinking here?

John
« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 08:37:21 PM by johnlm »

Chiron

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Re: a bit of data
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2005, 10:40:31 PM »
Heck of a job Dan


From your numbers so far and your comments about it being excelent at low wind performance and being more concerned about non windy days I'd think you have a pretty good match for your conditions/needs as it is.


"If it ain't broke don't fix it" but.....


I was wondering if you had considered inductors in series with the AC coming out of the gen. At low speed/frequency they would be low resistance and increase in resistance as the frequency went up. Load matching the gen to the load.


If laminated Iron cores were used they could be designed so they would saturate out and lower the resistance as the current went past a certain point they would act like a brake.


Just a late night thought

« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 10:40:31 PM by Chiron »

Flux

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2005, 01:59:34 AM »
3 degrees at the tip would seem to indicate a tsr of near 6 to me. with the less than theoretical twist it will be dominated by the pitch angle at about 0.7 radius and this will make probably nearer tsr 7.


The low wind performance seems consistent with this. As Dan suggests it is stalled at higher winds and he has confirmed this with the series resistor. I like him would prefer the quiet life in high winds.  If you really have to screw the maximum out in high winds you have to live with something less peaceful and user friendly.


I don't follow how you arrived at a tsr of 19. That would probably need a negative pitch or setting angle at the tip and blades like match sticks.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2005, 01:59:34 AM by Flux »

johnlm

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2005, 10:38:31 AM »
Flux ,Dan

Maybe Ill find out here where Im misunderstanding real TSR.  Ive added a drawing (not exactly to scale, but in the ballpark as a reference to the blade Dan made.)  After looking at it, it should be apparent how I came up with the notion of the high TSR. The TSR as I determined it in the attachment example is about 15.  Note I have not accounted for the difference in the chord line verses the face of the blade as in the example, and in the blades Ive made they are very close to the same. I have always thought that the tip TSR was the slope of the face of the blade relative to the direction of the oncoming wind.  After looking at some of the info published by Hugh the problem I may be having is not accounting for the the "apparent wind" direction caused by the blade rotating.  The odd thing is that I have always cut my blades following the approach shown in the attached picture, and when I measure non loaded RPM verses wind speed the prop is running at about the correct RPM (meaning the tip of the blade, if I thought I made a 6:1 TSR prop, was running 6X the speed of the oncoming wind.  I took this approach out of a couple of articles I found over the years, one being an old Mother Earth News published book called "Handbook of Homemade Power" and the other an old reprinted publication called "Homemade 6 Volt Wind-Electric Plants" originaly done by North Dakota Agrcultural College.


Please advise what Im doing wrong in determining the TSR. Thanks John




« Last Edit: February 09, 2005, 10:38:31 AM by johnlm »

johnlm

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2005, 10:47:34 AM »
Dan,

If this is too much off topic to your nice post on the 17 ft mill, I assume you have the capability to cut it out of your posting, and I can resubmit it under a separate post.

Thanks ,

John
« Last Edit: February 09, 2005, 10:47:34 AM by johnlm »

nothing to lose

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2005, 11:54:59 AM »
Nothing for me to say here except,


Way excellent dude!


That is a reall beauty!!


So are you Ebaying the one you took down? Is it still working well, or you salvaging parts from it? Shoot me a price for it if it is and maybe I'll help finance the 25' one you'll be working on next :)


Man you build great stuff!!

« Last Edit: February 09, 2005, 11:54:59 AM by nothing to lose »

mariusz

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Re: New 17' wind turbine up and running!
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2005, 03:37:27 PM »
Dan,

Your new wind turbine is beautiful. The blades are so nice that if they were mine I'll hang up them on the wall in my house instead of pictures. I'm wondering if I don't make the dual breake disc alternator like yours instead of the car alternator. My turbine is very strong but it has the invalid alternator. I hope I could realise it someday.

Best regards.Mariusz

« Last Edit: February 09, 2005, 03:37:27 PM by mariusz »