Author Topic: First wind turbine project - need some advice  (Read 3966 times)

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KC8QVO

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First wind turbine project - need some advice
« on: May 05, 2008, 10:56:37 PM »
Hi All. I am just starting my first wind turbine build. My goal is to have something in the neighborhood of an 8' machine on 12 volts. My plan is to use a 30vdc motor as a generator. I just got it today and have been playing around with it. The motor is about 10-12lbs and has a 3/4" shaft. It spins real easy and very smoothly - the shaft is on ball bearings.


I think I need in the neighborhood of a 1:5 increase ratio between the blades and the motor shaft to get my 12 volts (well, higher so I can charge a 12v system).


I am in Ohio so we don't get a lot of wind. My goal is to optimize the blades for torque rather than speed - that way I get better low speed performance. The turbine will not be a primary power source, it will only be used occasionally for demonstrations, emergency power, and Field Day (if you aren't a Ham radio operator - FD is an event to demonstrate the power and efficiency of Ham radio communications in "emergency" situations - more or less a big training event, but LOTS OF FUN!).


I am not real concerned with the output, I know I can get in the neighborhood of 10 amps out of the motor. The question is what is it going to take to drive it?


If you have any ideas on blade design (shape, size - is 8' about right?) or gearing ideas I would appreciate it. I have a full machine shop to build this one in.


Steve

« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 10:56:37 PM by (unknown) »

KC8QVO

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2008, 05:12:00 PM »
I just realized there are lots of references here to Ametek motors so I figured I would mention that my motor is an Ametek as well. The numbers on it are: 290588F7, 000196 REV.2, 01A(E56617) 116356-00, 30vdc Nominal. I don't know if this helps on knowing what I have?


Steve

« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 05:12:00 PM by KC8QVO »

Old F

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2008, 05:39:11 PM »
KC8QVO


What is the motors rated RPM?


I will be running 1B solar QRP for FD


Old F


N8QJU

« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 05:39:11 PM by Old F »
Having so much fun it should be illegal

kurt

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2008, 05:52:11 PM »
sounds like a plain old 30v amatek tape drive motor if so just carve a good 4' 3 blade prop for it mount it direct drive rig up a tail and put it on top of the highest tower you can and away you go should put out about 100w at 12v max.  
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 05:52:11 PM by kurt »

KC8QVO

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2008, 06:32:38 PM »
Once I start using the power (drawing current) from the turbine won't that add a lot of resistance? The motor is easy to turn right now, but I don't think it will be quite that easy to turn in actual use.


I am reluctant to try to drive this thing direct because I only got over 12 volts when I ran the motor pretty quick with a drill. I don't think a blade blowing in the wind can generate the speed I was making with the drill - especially at ~10mph.


I want some blades that will work in low wind with a lot of torque and won't take off when the wind does pick up. Big blade, lotsa torque, slow speed. Maybe I could just whip together a set of blades and just experiment with the angle of attack. That would probably get me where I want to be.


As for my FD operations - I will be running with the OSU Amateur Radio Club. I am not sure what our class will be this year, but I know we won't be running QRP and we will have at least 3 rigs set up. We usually are 4A.


Steve

« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 06:32:38 PM by KC8QVO »

Flux

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2008, 01:54:08 AM »
If you go for high torque low speed high solidity blades you will get less power out and you will need a large speed increase but it does satisfy your self regulating bit as your blades will become so inefficient that they will not run away in high winds. ( Windpump).


Power is torque x speed, you can trade one for the other but torque is no criteria of power out. Yes the motor will increase load with speed, but just providing torque will rob you of the speed component and you are no better off.


If you put bigger than 4ft blades on that thing you will burn it out anyway unless you have some furling or control scheme. You can use bigger blades with speed increase to get more power in light wind but it would be pointless to go to the loe speed high torque blades with high tower loading and low efficiency just to avoid furling or some form of current limiting.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 01:54:08 AM by Flux »

KC8QVO

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2008, 04:17:07 AM »
I couldn't find the RPM listed on the motor. It might be burried in with the numbers I listed before, but I don't know for sure. The motor is 6" long, 4"d and the shaft is about 3/4" - rated for 30v.


I am curious now as to what the optimum speed is for this motor and the max rated capacity at that speed. Any ideas?


It sounds like direct drive might not be a bad idea after all. I will make a hub here today if I have time and toss some blades on there and see what happens. I just have in my head that it will take a lot of speed to get this thing up over 12v.  


Steve

« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 04:17:07 AM by KC8QVO »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 05:41:57 AM »
Isn't this the part of the story where Woofer inserts a link for Zub-Woofers?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 05:41:57 AM by TheCasualTraveler »

kurt

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 01:44:12 PM »
it should cut in at 12v at around 300 to 350 rpm that is about right for a 4' prop go with carved wood blades for it pvc works somewhat but you will have better luck with wood. and it is good practice for when you decide to build something bigger....
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 01:44:12 PM by kurt »

FishbonzWV

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 03:58:56 PM »
Here's my first try at a gear up. Lots of torque with the multiple blades and started up in very low winds. I've since switched to 5 blades for easier balancing.

This might get you started on your own ideas.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/4/28/222819/615


Fishbonz

« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 03:58:56 PM by FishbonzWV »
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FishbonzWV

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 04:51:16 PM »
Oh, by the way those blades were a little too thick.

I'm getting ready to make a couple more 5 blade props and these blades will be 4 inches at the root and 2 inches at the tips. Also just 30 inches long.

I have a couple of motor conversions they will be installed on and one has some cogging that needs more oomph to get it started so I'll take the three blade prop off of it and put on the other conversion.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 04:51:16 PM by FishbonzWV »
"Put your brain in gear before you put your mouth in motion"
H.F.Fisher 1925-2007

jonas302

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 06:15:03 PM »
Here is  chart posted a while ago http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/2/10/2826/28713
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 06:15:03 PM by jonas302 »

wooferhound

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 06:30:54 PM »
Hey

These are cheap and something to start out with but I don't think they will work wonderfully on Ametek motor/generators . . .

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/11/11/172721/53

« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 06:30:54 PM by wooferhound »

wooferhound

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« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 06:38:21 PM by wooferhound »

KC8QVO

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 07:49:38 PM »
Thanks for the info, guys.


I started the machining on the hub today. It is solid steel about 1.5" in diameter (I didn't really measure it, I just used something I found and cleaned it up). I machined the center out for the motor shaft. That was a pain but I got it done and it looks to spin pretty true. The clearence is quite tight so there is a nice friction fit between the motor shaft and the "hub".


I figure this will all just be an experiment, so for now this is the plan for the blades: I am going to stick with the 8' because I have some foam already a nice 4' wide. There will be a hardwood spar at the thickest part of the airfoil all the way through, then fiberglass on the outside. The hub will be the thing I machined today plus "spokes" welded in for 3 blades. All 3 spokes will be connected with a ring or straight rod at about a 6" radius to tie them all together. I want to be able to adjust the pitch of the prop in my experimentation so I am going to make a rotatable connection between each blade and the hub (with, of course, a locking mechanism so the blades don't go anywhere hehehe). I haven't quite figured that one out yet. I have a few options in my head, though.


I know wood would be "better", but this is my first turbine and I am playing around with the design. Since I have the foam insulation I am going to stick to that. Plus it is MUCH lighter hehe. From what has been said I think I will be OK with direct drive. If I can't get my ~12v+ out of it then I might work on a step drive, the gearing will depend on what my results are with the direct drive. I hope direct works, though - more time for my other class project :)


Steve  

« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 07:49:38 PM by KC8QVO »

elvin1949

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2008, 10:23:24 PM »
Steve

 8ft will turn slower. 4 ft will be much faster.

later

Elvin
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 10:23:24 PM by elvin1949 »

wooferhound

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2008, 07:14:22 AM »
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 07:14:22 AM by wooferhound »

KC8QVO

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2008, 10:57:39 AM »
Elvin, I will experiment and see what happens. Making another set of blades won't be an issue - or cutting down the ones I do make.


I have been researching furling set ups and I have a big question: What exactly causes the turbine to rotate out of the wind? Is it the windloading of the turbine blades rotating the off-set hub against the tail and thus out of the wind? Or is it the wind on the tail doing something to cause it to swing against gravity/angled hinge?


Is there a way to "tune" the furling so the turbine rotates when it should, not too soon and not too late? Maybe by adding or subtracting weight from the tail?


Steve

« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 10:57:39 AM by KC8QVO »

elvin1949

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2008, 01:29:35 AM »
Steve

  You got it right.  add or take off weight

later

Elvin
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 01:29:35 AM by elvin1949 »

elvin1949

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2008, 01:32:43 AM »
 Sorry,hit post to quick.

 Remove weight to furl earlier,add weight to furl later.


later

Elvin

« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 01:32:43 AM by elvin1949 »

KC8QVO

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2008, 11:14:25 AM »
I have a question about voltage regulation now. I have read on here about "not" using vehicle voltage regulators. In one discussion there was talk of not needing to regulate the voltage at all because the batteries would provide enough of a load/regulation themselves - until fully charged, at which point the supply would be switched from the battery load to a dead load to prevent the batteries from over-voltage as well as keep the geny from over-speeding.


That sounds all well and good. The issue I see with this setup is I am using a motor as a generator. If the wind drops below a certain level than the system would reverse - the motor would be drivin by the batteries. That would REALLY depleat my system fast! Could I put some power diodes in there so the current only flows from the motor to the batteries?


Steve

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 11:14:25 AM by KC8QVO »

ghurd

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2008, 11:25:35 AM »
Yes, a diode is implied for a brushed PM DC motors.


The windmill goes through the diode to the battery.

A dump controller connects directly to the battery.


The second sketch shows a battery, dump load and my controller.

Notice it does not show a windmill, solar panel or hydro, because they are seperate from the controller.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/8/24/172521/889


G-

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 11:25:35 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

KC8QVO

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2008, 06:12:38 PM »
ghurd - THANKS!!!!!!!!!! You took the next couple questions right out of my fingertips.  Your post on the dump controller is extremely helpful, I will have to read it more as I get to the regulation stage.


For now I need to get crankin' on the turbine.


Steve

« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 06:12:38 PM by KC8QVO »

KC8QVO

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 07:12:36 PM »
The wind turbine is coming along a bit slower than I anticipated (not much new there - everything goes slower than I expect). That said, I built my tail today. I used 1/2" heavy guage tubing for the arm and 1x.125" angle iron to mount the fin to. I triangulated the arm to keep it rigid.


I have also been playing around with some dump load circuitry. I will probably model the previously mentioned controller since it is already made up. I just need to find all the components.


Now the really good news. I was talking to a buddy of mine who is a Tech Ed teacher the other day when he came in. I was showing him the turbine project and he was quite impressed. His school recently bought a 5x8' CNC router/mill. He said if I could draw the blades up in CAD he will cut them out for me! I am going to use solid laminated wood, just like most of the turbines here on otherpower.com. I haven't figured out if I am going to do one at a time or take advantage of the HUGE table and do all 3 out of the same block.


I am most in-tune to Autodesk AutoCAD, so that is the program I am using. I digitized some templates I found online and used them as chord stations along the blades. The source I found had a nice layout of different blade configurations for different size turbines so I took the set of templates that was closest to my machine size (unfortunately I didn't take note of the site - I just found it and used the templates hehehe).


Now - a BIG CAD question if anyone out there can answer it. I am using AutoCAD 2005. I have 3 chord stations - root, tip, and 75%R of rotor. I am also tapering the blades from a 12" chord at the root to 6" at the tip. Nothing fancy about the dimensions - that is just what I threw together. The question: How do I form a solid through the chord stations so that the blade comes out as ONE object with a uniform flow? I don't know if there is a command I can use that will allow me to select multiple shapes to extrude to/through - sort of like extruding along a path? I tried to do a 3D skin but I can only select a beginning shape and ending shape (2), and the skin doesn't fully conform to the shape of the airfoils selected at each chord station - it flattens it out (unless that is just AutoCAD's way of utilizing less processing power?). I tried to union the two (tip to 75% and 75% to root) skins and I got a message saying that I needed to select two or more solids.


Any ideas? I will play around with it tomorrow again and see if I can figure it out. I have never tried to do this before. I have extruded along paths before, but that was a uniform cross-sectional shape. Here I am dealing with 3 shapes AND a taper...


Steve

« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 07:12:36 PM by KC8QVO »

KC8QVO

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Re: First wind turbine project - need some advice
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2008, 11:45:22 AM »
I spent over 10 hours in the shop yesteday making the main axle and spindle assembly. Basically I made two parts - the spindle and the axle. Between sharpening lathe tools, setting up the tools, and trying to keep the parts true in the chuck I spent my entire time on those two parts and they still didn't come out perfect.


Here are some pictures. There are some reinforcing bands I am going to weld to the spindle to reinforce the bearing caps (some thick wall tubing pressed over the ends and welded shut - like the band on a 2" reciever on a truck).


http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o117/KC8QVO/wind%20turbine/

« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 11:45:22 AM by KC8QVO »