Author Topic: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help  (Read 7734 times)

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Northbay

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Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« on: February 03, 2011, 07:53:29 PM »
I'm a new member living in southern Ontario, my goal is to power a self sustainable hobby farm up north around Algonquin park. This is going to be a slow process for me as I have yet to even buy the land but have appointments this week and plan to acquire 100+acres before the spring.

Soo to specifics I plan on doing this right but not all at once. I'm looking for a 48v Battery bank, I was thinking a Sonnenschein Solar Series Gel Battery 48V 300Ah could power a 2500w/5000w inverter? or do I need to goto 500Ah to handle peaks? would 2 of these 300 Ah batteries be better then a single battery and in retrospect should I have 2 150 Ah batteries over 1 300ah if that is all I need. I read that I need 100Ah per 1000w?

I have also found stackable 2500w/5000w inverters that are compatible with 12v,24v, or 48v, and convert to 120v ac at >88% efficency. My plan was to buy one of each and enough solar panels to keep it charged, and then as I want more power and progress from testing by more and stack them adding an extra battery per inverter, they stack up to 10.

I'm currently looking at discount solar cells that I will have to solder and make weather proof housing for. I figured save money while testing since surface area and efficiency here was not much of an issue with my land size. And I will not have any appliances during first few years, as I'm am keeping my primary residence until this is functional. So this cells are 3x6 and produce 1.75w average in there test machine and they are made by Everbright Solar Inc. I've seen quality mono cells produce 3.5w per 5x5 square but the cost difference seems unreasonable... I was planing on purchasing 4kW of cells hopefully from the 2200 cells in the kit.

Will 4kw of solar panels charge a single 48v battery powering a 2500w inverter? can panel feed be disconnected if batteries are at full capacity automatically? or do I need to go the extra effort and make a dumb load for trials? Also when wiring my solar cells they suggest to wire them to 1.5x your desired voltage. So if I want a 48v battery bank do I need 72v panel or 2 36v panels in parallel or 4 18v panels to charge my bank with greatest efficiency?

Eventually I plan to incorporate wind but I figured I should try and get a handle on solar first just to power a few camping supplies.

also can I make multiple panel boxes from my battery banks housing leads of different voltages? To clarify I want a panel box of 120v ac from inverter and a separate panel box of 12v dc terminals(which will require step down transformer from battery? or separate system?) and if I find and 24v or 48v tools I may want boxes for that aswell.

madlabs

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 11:03:37 AM »
Hey NorthBay,

I lived in Ottawa for a while. In terms of making your own panels, it seems pretty tough, especially with the weather up there. I'm guessing that your best value is to buy some panels. With the temp extremes, snow loading etc, I think you will have problems with DIY panels. Many folks have tried (here on this forum too) and it seems that the DIY route is tough to make a panel that survives weather.

48V stuff is pretty expensive. I'm sticking with 12V just because you can get chargers, inverters etc cheaper. The need for larger wire isn't too bad for me, my panels and batteries are located very close to each other.

4kW is a pretty decent array. I have 660 watts up right now, feeding into a 1200 aH, 12V bank. I have another 440 watts of panels that will go up sometime soon. On sunny days I have plenty of power. However, I have great sun exposure from 8 AM to 6pm in then summer. So, some of your questions are site specific. I'd wait to figure out how many panels you need until you know your location.

One thing that is working well for me is having a shipping container for a power center. I cantileverd the panels on the edge of the container, so it is really easy to do the seasonal adjust. And the batteries are located right underneath, so the wiring length is pretty short.


Anyway, have fun. I've been camping in the Algonquin park.

Jonathan

ghurd

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 11:25:26 AM »
Not many people think very highly of those ebay 'stackable' inverters.

I would suggest planning it out as well as possible, then pick a voltage and stick with it.
THEN buy one decent name brand inverter.

I will second what Jonathan said about building your own panels.
Not a good idea unless you have a lot of experience with everything involved, and probably not a good idea even then.
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Hilltopgrange

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 12:46:03 PM »
"also can I make multiple panel boxes from my battery banks housing leads of different voltages? To clarify I want a panel box of 120v ac from inverter and a separate panel box of 12v dc terminals(which will require step down transformer from battery? or separate system?) and if I find and 24v or 48v tools I may want boxes for that aswell "

Transformers only work with AC, DC-DC converters can be got but are expensive!

 If you take a lower voltage tap from your battery it will throw the battery out of balance.

Just something to watch out for.
Russell
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Northbay

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 10:03:41 PM »
Thank you for so much feed back so soon Im impressed :)

So to begin with location I have yet to purchase the land however I plan to design my structures around the power source and Im going to plan the solar field based on high ground for proximity to wind turbines. I feel I have as much time as i need to make this work perfectly and Im in pre-planing stages still.. So I have the advantage of logging an area and leveling the ground for my solar array.

Now for array size Im still very confused as to how to compare the watt rating of a solar panel to how it will charge a battery. for instance I am to understand that for every 1kWh of power I draw through an inverter I will require 100Ah of battery? Is this correct and does this apply for any voltage? Speaking of voltage I was originally planning on a 12v system for convince and cost however after reading some posts I was under the impression 48v battery bank was most efficient for supply an inverter? As for inverters what is problematic with stackable inverters from ebay? is it the >88% efficiency vs the higher quality >95% efficiency inverters? The stackable system appealed to me as it was easier to do as a slow investment as well as add on to as I found out whether I need more power or not. Basically it seems more versatile.

So back tracking to my batteries Should I make separate Banks on separate panel systems in order to house panels of different voltage? For instance a 48v battery bank for all my 120ac inverter needs and then a 12v and/or 24v battery bank for all my tool needs?

I have decided to construct my own solar panels because it is infinitely cheaper and I intended on designing a large portion of my array under a glass roof that will be well constructed. I feel making it weather proof is just a matter of cost of supply's, time, ability, and dedication. I can't see it being very difficult, as well as it give me the freedom to wire a single panel to produce 48v or what ever my need is. which reminds me of that rating guide, should panel voltage be 1.5x greater then desired? is there something between it and battery to prevent overcharge? or is that dump load...?

also to Jonathan How many batteries are involved in your bank? Im guessing you'd need around 48 batteries assuming its around 25Ah a battery? also how are they wired? all in parallel or does half and half parallel series amplify your Ah? Also how does 660W worth of panels satisfy a 1200Ah bank? Or is the wattage based on your usage rather then the bank size?  Im still very new to electrical theory but feel free to spit out any data you have.

I eventually want to have at least a 10kWh supply (I think) to a battery system that can handle it. Obviously I have alot of planning and designating appliances to certain grids and wattages required but I expect at least that much for AC to live comfortably. So with this in mind How should I design my dc-ac battery bank? is 48v the best? if cost was an option, within reason. Since this is a one time investment I strongly believe in do it right the first time or not at all.. so i refuse to cheap out

so specifically what I need to know now if stackable is an option how many solar panels are needed to charge a battery with no draw? based on size of battery? I just want to experiment in my basement right now, set up a panel or to on the roof or back yard and power a light or just simply charge a battery. I just wanted what I ever I buy today to be usefully in the future of my homesteading adventure

DanG

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 11:10:57 PM »
You need Iron-free glass for PV (and also DHW for the purists) as the iron blocks the higher energy wavelengths.

A quick check is the Iron in glass is what makes the edges glow green.

ghurd

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 11:21:02 PM »
Might take a deep breath, relax, and slow down a bit.

I will be a little more direct about the inverter.  It is junk.
(if the only place you can buy something like that is from one guy on ebay, it has no UL listing, and no real RE retailers sell them, take that as a sign)

10kw supply means like 900A of 12V, 225A of 48V.
To effectively and efficiently utilize that much charging current will take a lot of battery.
Makes no sense to try 12V with numbers like that.
With 48V, probably looking at 4000 to 8000AH, depending on the philosophy you follow.
If you are familar with the larger size "boat" battery, it's about 300 of them.

"I just wanted what I ever I buy today to be usefully in the future of my homesteading adventure"
That is going to exclude cheap home made panels.
The internet is full of stories about how wonderful someone's home made panel is working for the last 2 weeks.  There are not many stories bragging they lasted 5 years.

Not sure where the 10kw came from.
That's 125 solar panels rated at 100W in a non MPPT system.
Many people live like they are on grid with a fraction of that.
Consider this- The largest common charge controller amperage rating made by all the brands in the market is 60A.  (FX-60, TS-60, C60)  With a 48V system, it would require 4 of them.
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Northbay

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 12:52:19 AM »
DanG that sounded like it could have been helpful however you used acronym that I am completely unaware of.... Sooo whats PV? Where is the green? on the glass or the panel under the glass? is the discoloration from the sun? why is iron free glass an issue anyway? is it expensive?..

If someone makes a panel that only lasts two weeks.. I wouldn't want to live in their self built home.. thats all i can say

soo instead of saying its junk.. perhaps why? like all it is, is coper wires and electromagnet right? weight should gauge quality and his inveter is as heavy as most and efficiency is only 5% less so whats the big deal? why is stacking an inverter negative ? ive read something about them getting burnt out but don't understand why

I read someones post on this forum homestead used 10kWh on inverter readings? took it as a rough estimate. I wanted to start small and expand onto it. as for my cheap solar panels they may not produce alot of wattage but it only takes a few extra square feet to make up the difference.

my power usage is unknown if stackable inverters is impossible perhaps i should start calculating some wattage usage but in the end its all an estimate till its up and running..... I need flexibility

so plan is 48v battery bank to supply inverters. size unkown. Ah unkown.. then a secondary bank for lower dc.. can't decide on voltage though. what kinda of DC lighting exists, and at what voltage 0.o most tools are 12v and 120ac

CompuTutor

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 02:16:58 AM »
I will be a little more direct about the inverter.
 It is junk.
(if the only place you can buy something like that is from one guy on ebay,
it has no UL listing, and no real RE retailers sell them, take that as a sign)

NorthBay,
I'll have to second that vote about noting that,
there are those across the net saying it is junk.

You can read that first hand right here:
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,144061.msg982092.html#msg982092



That is also my first post here,
I am looking for one of these
that is already blown out,
to reverse-engineer and modify...

Anyone with a blown "AccurateTools" or a "Sun"/"ATSIU" inverter,
I could sure use that item to the betterment of all here for sure !

I am hoping it will be the top 2500W/5000W model,
I don't care what voltage in or out it is though...
(SUN-2500P/12-120  or  ATSIU-2500P-12-120 as examples)

I'll pay the S&H to me of course...



NorthBay,
PV is an acronym for PhotoVoltiac,
the active element used in solar cells.

The "Green" referred to is
what you see when you hold
a piece of glass up in good light
and look at the edge of it only.

The iron's refraction wavelength
tend to make the edges appear green...

This an issue due to the fact silicon PV's use
a spectrum of the light range that is not centered
in relation to what our eyes offer us daily.

So the lead/iron amounts in cheap window glass
appears clear to our eyes due to the range we see,
but they are nearer to opaque at the required wavelengths
neeeded to obtain reasonablely full output from a PV array.

So unless you willing to pay for the cost of good glass,
obtain a good HVAC vacuum pump to vacate the array,
and pay for good dessicant + make your own heater to prep it.

And another home made chamber to heat the whole array in
before evacuating of air, introducing the dessicant, it and sealing it,
your better off purchasing pre-built panels from a factory
that uses a machine made to do all this automaticly really.

It can be done if your really good at things, but...

Sorry to be a downer.

Hope this helps.

Thanks in advance,
CompuTutor
Sat 02-05-11
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 02:46:04 AM by CompuTutor »

madlabs

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 11:30:16 AM »
North,

My battery bank is made of 10 six volt golf cart batteries, hooked up in a series/parallel configuration. Each is rated for  220aH. I would stick with one bank of batteries, wiring and charging becomes complex quickly. On a sunny day, the 660 watts of panels easily makes up the 100 to 200 aH that I use at night. I'm pretty frugal with my power. Remember that it takes between 20% to 30% more charge to replace what you use. So if you used 100aH, it will take between 120 to 130 aH to recharge.

I get your concern with price. I am a low budget DIY kinda guy who built his system himself on the cheap. I'm willing to undertake all sorts of projects and have a wide ranging skill set. All that said, while I was tempted to make my own, I went with commercial PV panels. Lots of smart dedicated folks have had poor outcomes with homebuilt panels. As mentioned earlier it takes the right tools and enviromental controls to build panels that will really last. The other thing I wouldn't stinge on is a good inverter. Now I don't mean you need a fancy expensive one. I am using an old Trace 2512 that I got free. Dang thing puts out way more than it's rating and is rock solid.

Since you have some time, why not get a panel or two, some batteries and a small inverter. Set it up your TV or PC, something you use. That is what I did before I moved off grid. It will give you a good feel for what you need and how things work. To keep yourself busy, start tracking down stuff you KNOW you are going to need, like wire. Wire can be really expensive so start looking for that sweet deal.

Jonathan

Madscientist267

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 02:06:43 PM »
Gonna have to agree with everything thats being said here.

You're ambitious, which is not a bad thing, but if you don't pay attention to what you're getting into, attention won't be the only thing you come up short on.  :-\

Seen time and time again, people dive in with plenty of money to throw at a system, but end up regretting what they got. You'll be no different.

There are a few rules you should keep in the back of your mind when you're looking into all of this...

1 - Don't design a system around what you currently use. Its generally impractical to attempt the lifestyle that on grid provides with an off grid energy budget. Find ways of trimming all the fat that you can from what you currently do (using CFL or LED lights instead of incandescent, for example) and then base a system on those numbers.

2 - You'll find once you get going that the system will never actually be complete - every system is inherently 'expandable', simply for the same reasons that a hard drive is never big enough. When the power is there, you will use it. When it's not, you'll wish you had it. You'll remember this when you have spare change rattling around - and pin it up wherever the weak point is. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. If you're making too much, get more batteries. If you're using too much, cut back (yeah right) or acquire more source. Inverters can't handle it? Buy bigger ones. There's always going to be something you can do to your system to improve it, rest assured. :)

3 - Start small so that you grasp the concepts involved. RE is not really a 'slap it together' technology. While you can do that to some extent on small scale, trying it at a larger scale will be an expensive lesson learned. If you start small, the stakes are small, and so are your errors and the cost to repair them. The only difference between a small system and a large one (other than the amount of energy you can get out of it) is the cost of creating it, maintaining it, and repairing it.

4 - Do your homework. Understand what you're buying before you buy it. Heed the warnings of others. Plan thoroughly.

5 - Repeat 1-4 until fully functional system is ready for final smoke test. Then hang on and flip the switch!

It's fun, rewarding, and can provide you with a sense of independence. It can also be very expensive (and even dangerous, depending) if you jump in without knowing what you're going up against.

FWIW

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

madlabs

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 07:21:22 PM »
North,

Don't feel like folks are slamming you or your ideas. Everyone and every situation is different. But most of the folks here have put their money where their mouth is. I can't agree with Madscientist more, especially point #1. I use waaaaay less juice now than before I went off grid. And I was very energy stingy for a grid connected person. When you have to account for every watt, you get careful in a hurry.

Anyway, don't want you to feel discouraged by this forum. This is the best place to get the real skinny with very helpful folks.

BTW, first turbine tower up today. I'm going to put up some pics in another thread.

Jonathan

Northbay

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 08:23:40 PM »
Okay so about these Inverters what is so bad? Is it life? I noticed a member named Fabricator is using the stackable inverters from ebay and you can see this in his post under wind section regarding his wind turbine wall. I got the impression they work and I dot under stand how they woulnd't unless they were made from a smaller gauger wire or less wraps...

The reason I want stackable invters is so I dont have to keep selling my old one when I need to step up my output.

My new plan is to get a true sine wave inveter powering my home theater system in my home to test. So stacking this one wont matter, will alway have to be seperate.

As for home light what is cfl? And do any lights run on DC? I want to use the inverter as little as possible.

As for multiple banks they will just need seperate panels and charging. I can handle multiple system just take time to expand that far. Im happy without power I just choose to have it.

Most importantly panels, so glass is one thing I'd be willing to learn how to fordge my own clear glass before I give up but what of the vaccum? Im actually an HVAC student and have been in the field for 2 years and have never used anything more then a shop vac. Un.less you mean duct cleaning.. regardless why is a sealed vaccum needed for the panels? Moisture?  Is the heating process also for moisture? Could I not seal the glass to frame with urethane glue that is used in automobile production for windshields?

So are higher voltage batteries more efficiant in anyway or is the only benifit that they require smaller wire for greater distances??

Northbay

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 08:25:33 PM »
Im also having a hard time understanding how wattage of panel translates to Ah of charinging power.

Madscientist267

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 08:46:46 PM »
Quote
Inverters what is so bad?

I believe he is having a problem with the neutral line, and magic smoke release.

Check out later in the thread; it starts out good, but he reveals a fatal flaw in the design that cost him a decent chunk of change (if I understood correctly)...

CFL = Compact Fluorescent Lighting; those squirrely looking spiral tube bulbs you find at wally world. They are tons more efficient than incandescent.

Yes there is a such thing as DC lighting, a trip through Google will reveal some of what's available out there, or you can venture on to make your own. The lighting section on here has a few good posts about homebrew bulbs people have made for their off grid systems.

Vacuum is referring to part of the process to making a panel. It involves evacuating all of the air out of a chamber to get rid of bubbles etc. This isn't Dyson or Craftsman territory. Since you're familiar with HVAC, think closer to your evac pump for preparing a system for freon release... and beyond.

Quote
I'd be willing to learn how to fordge my own clear glass before I give up

Am I understanding you correctly? You want to make your own glass?

Dunno where to even begin with that...  ???  There's making panels, and then there's making glass... ?

Last but not least, the nominal system voltage debate is a deep (and sometimes very heated) subject around here, invoking arguments from both extremes and everywhere in between. The best system voltage to go with is dependent on a myriad of factors. Things like cost of wire, yes, but also availability and cost of equipment running at a given voltage, the scale of the system, yadda yadda yadda...

General (don't start swinging, guys - I said general) consensus around here is something like the following:

Smaller (ie 12V) system - 1000W or less - lower voltage, cheaper and more diverse equipment available to do the job. Less efficient and costs more due to heavier copper runs.

Medium size (ie 24V) - 1000 - 5000W - good balance between availability, cost, efficiency and diversity. Copper doesn't kill as bad as the 12V does.

Large (48V) - 5000W and up - less diversity, cost goes up, reliability goes up, efficiency goes up, copper costs down.

Custom - 60V and up, any wattage range - These are for the people that really want to get control of each and every solder joint and aren't afraid of all the nasty twists and turns that will come at them in the process...  ;)

With that being said, those four lines will start a riot soon, so get your battle gear on. I'll be waiting in the corner over here with a stick... They're going to have fun with this.

Hang around and keep the questions coming, your personalized 'big picture' will come together for you...

In the mean time, ENJOY THE SHOW!  ;D

Steve

The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

klsmurf

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 08:56:35 PM »
Nothing personal, but it sounds like some reading may be in order. I spent hours reading this forum and other literature to get the terminology, concepts and the like down to where I feel I can follow most all threads and am comfortable experimenting on my own.
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Madscientist267

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2011, 08:57:30 PM »
Wattage in a panel is only part of the Ah calculation.

The math is simple, application of it not always quite so.

In a nut shell, one amp hour is the ability to draw 1 amp from a battery for an hour. The 'size' of the battery.

Converting this into watt hours (and therefore what you'll get out of a panel) is just an extension of this.

If you're already familiar with Ohm's law, then you'll recall that P = I x E. If this means nothing to you, look up "ohm's law" on Google, then come back and continue reading...

Therefore, the power flowing is a function of voltage and current, and is expressed in watts.

The watt hour adds another dimension to this by including time. So 1 watt hour is 1 watt, for an hour. Just like an amp hour, only measuring power instead of current.

Then all you need to know is, how much sun will your panel see each day (on average, called 'insolation'). Let's say you have a 100W panel, and it sees 6 hours of direct sunlight a day.

Your panel has a production capability of 600Wh per day, or 0.6kWh.

If you go to store this in a battery bank, you'll once again need to go back to Ohm's law, and convert your amp hours into watt hours by incorporating your nominal system voltage.

Let's say your system is 24V and you have 100Ah of battery. This works out to 2.4kWh of storage capacity. Your panel puts out 0.6kWh of power per day.

Without getting into all the intricacies of why a 100Ah battery isn't really 100Ah, keeping it simple reveals that you will need 4 sunny days to completely recharge your bank.

There are MANY more factors to take into consideration, but this illustrates how the math works.

Make sense?

Steve

The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

wpowokal

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2011, 09:59:32 PM »
Here is some reading for you.... includes examples of systems.

I would slightly disagree with Steve on inverter sizing for 24V systems, I believe 3000W should be max on 24V unless you have a LARGE batter bank.

http://www.rpc.com.au/products/services/examples.html

Allan

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Madscientist267

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2011, 11:18:01 PM »
Yeah, pondered that actually. 3K was my original line, but I've seen mention of up to 5K, so I went with it.

It's all a matter of preference, what's available, and cost.

When it really comes down to it, there really is no such thing as a right or wrong system voltage. They all have pros and cons, and the lines have been crossed all over the place on here, sometimes resulting in some really nasty threading (albeit entertaining reading). There are people that have entire houses running on 12V systems, and others that have little more than small shacks running on 48.

You're going to have to decide what will work best for you, and then go with it. System voltage is kinda one of those things that you're best off doing all of your homework ahead of time though, because even though it's not impossible to change to a different voltage later, it generally means reconfiguring everything to accommodate it.

A hassle that most (myself included) would like to avoid. I have done an upgrade once, from 12 to 24, and actually maintain both now, although for two completely different purposes.

Even I'm not convinced of all the pros and cons that get mentioned around here. I changed over because I needed to go with a higher output UPS system for my servers, and the 12V versions of things just weren't cutting it anymore. One of only a zillion reasons to consider one over another.

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

CompuTutor

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2011, 11:39:08 PM »
I've been following this thread to get other peoples experiences
and a general feel for what works for them on inverters.

I only found it due to the mention of the eBay stackable inverters,
but I wound up posting about solar panel anti-condensation prep instead...



One thing came to mind that may be more cost-effective
for the Hellbent-To-DIY people willing to take a shot at it.

It is a compromise between purchasing individual components,
building the majority of the photovoltiac panel one's self,
and the needed proceedural equipment required for sealing it.



Finding and assembling the the rows/columns and mounting
is fairly easy if you have basic soldering skills and supplies.

Even pulling the vac on the front/back film can be done
by renting an HVAC vacuum pump from the rental store.

The comprimise would of course being the proceedure of
skipping the heating of all to release surface moisture,
and the dessicant with It's own heat preperation too.

But the final stage may be best subbed out to a local.



What about using your local glass (Window) guy
that deals with dual-pane inert gas windows daily ?

Perhaps he/she would be willing to order (Low mineral) PV-grade glass.

Sell you the aluminum extruded stock to custom make your own frame.

Then cut that glass, seal your project, and utilize inert gas for you.



I do not know what the permitivy of the inert gas used is,
or if it blocks the light wavelengths used by silicon PV cells,
like people here say about the lead/iron in cheap window glass.

Sadly, it isn't simple to test on your current windows,
due to them being the wrong glass apparantly...

This is just an idea I'm throwing out there for consideration.

it is a comprimise that may elevate both the quality and viability
of a person making their own panels that last a reasonable lifespan...



And I already know I spell like crap, lol, no need to point that out...
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 11:44:51 PM by CompuTutor »

Volvo farmer

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2011, 07:56:11 AM »
Quote from: CompuTutor


What about using your local glass (Window) guy
that deals with dual-pane inert gas windows daily ?

Perhaps he/she would be willing to order (Low mineral) PV-grade glass.

Sell you the aluminum extruded stock to custom make your own frame.

Then cut that glass, seal your project, and utilize inert gas for you.



Anyone can DIY build solar panels.... If cost is no object. ;-)

 I built mine much like you say here, but the glass was free, and I didn't use any aluminum on the edges.  Despite stories of these panels not lasting very long, mine have been out in the weather making power since 2006. They get moisture in them all the time, but they appear to dry out after a few sunny days.

When I built these in 2005, I believe commercial panels were up around 5 bucks a watt. I built these for about $2/watt IIRC, and that was with free glass and about $50 each in parts/materials to seal them up at the local glass shop.

Nowadays, commercial, 20-year warranty, string-ribbon panels are approaching $2.50/watt. A quick check on Ebay seemed to confirm that the cells themselves are still selling for about a buck a watt.  So that leaves about $150 to play with for glass, solder, sealing materials, and edging for every 100 watt panel you make.  There just isn't much margin there.

If the OP wants to spend his money making his own solar panels, I say good for him. If he wants something to point at and puff up his chest and say he did it himself, he will be richly rewarded. However, if he wants to save dollars putting together an off-grid electric system, there are a whole lot of people in here, including a few who have BTDT, telling him that DIY solar panels are a fool's errand.
Less bark, more wag.

Northbay

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2011, 09:52:11 AM »
Yes Steve that helped a lot :) I was looking for a starting value and didn't even understand that 100w panel ment it generated 100w of energy while under full sun in 1 hour. Now that I know this it will be easy to size my panels to my needs.

is my calculation of 100Ah per 1000w of constant inverter draw correct for sizing my battery bank?

as for my battery bank I would prefer to have a 12v system. or a system made from 12v batteries due to availability and ease of charge i.e. car alternators (if one were to assume the end of society may come scavenging would provide mainly 12v parts) realistically though I would like the most efficient system in way of storage and conversion, I have done a lot of reading and have even come across a homemade inverter that uses a 120v dc battery bank and was made form audio equipment making a true sine wave.
Im very interested in constructing these parts individually eventually for best results however my skills and knowledge are lacking for now. I learn best jumping in with both feet not just reading so I want to start with a small expandable system that wont be a waste of money.
So for my battery bank though can I use 12v batteries to make a 48v bank or however high I want? will the Ah be to weak from being in parallel? and could you bring it up by connecting these parallel batteries that are making Xv now in series for Ah increase? obviously the amount of batteries needed would be unreasonable if even possible but... if car batteries are all you can find would it work?

What ended up being the fatal flaw with the stackable inverter? a quote might have been awesome :O Fabricator had 3 of them and looked like a serious member.. obviously I should just message him but if anyone has some input...

As for vacuums Im not in A/C just heating aspect. a/c is an extra 3 years however I have worker aside a/c tech charging a 600psi 3ton system. very expensive equipment agreed. The real question lies in why does it need to be under a vacuum? What of these air bubbles... they seem trivial. My concern would have been temperature fronts creating condensation on panels, since water is held in air eliminating air in an air tight box would equal dryness forever, also explains why they need to be heated... Anyway all these thing can be done I can use a furnace to duct to a single room/chamber making it X temperature to work on panels, I can get window epoxy to seal glass (from speedy auto glass) as for creating a vacuum I need more information. I.E what amount of negative pressure is really required because theoretically -1psi should work or even -1 inch WC although I assume they have a higher vacuum to guarantee no moisture is present.

As for making glass I have thought and planed about it earlier for sake of making regular windows for my homestead and greenhouses. There is a blacksmith among our group and we intend on building a Forge for steel and then use to melt sand as well. How it works? not sure yet.. that ones all theory trying to be able to do everything have everything all from our own manufacturing and production centers if anyones familiar with The Venus project from Zeitgeist their layout is freakishly similar to what we have planned

I should mention I fully plan on returning to school for electrical engineering or specifically in electrical motors so feel free to bombard me with laws, I love reading my electrical text books.

Northbay

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2011, 10:12:11 AM »
Also I had not considered trucks and planes, perhaps a base of 24v batteries would be best but the question remains should I connect them in parallel to make 120v? or 48v to start since I can't make an inverter yet and I haven't seen higher than that for sale.. but regardless can you make them 120v? and by adding a few of these chains in series can I make adequate Ah?

Madscientist267

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2011, 11:40:54 AM »
Quote
is my calculation of 100Ah per 1000w of constant inverter draw correct for sizing my battery bank?

It's better to think of battery banks in terms of Wh, not Ah. In a way, this applies across the board. Power is the common denominator in electrical design. If you try to view things in only amp-hours, you'll end up confusing yourself. Translate as much as possible to wattage, and your math will be much easier from start to finish.

While the math itself is simple, calculating actual practiced battery capacity gets rather involved, because you need to calculate for what you use, what you generate, realities of energy availability (such as insolation) in the area where the installation is, weather, losses, margins, and DoD (depth of discharge, which is important if you expect to properly balance the cost of the bank vs the cost of replacing it prematurely on a regular basis).

Depending on the battery type you end up with, your DoD and margins by design will fall between 20 and 50% of total rated capacity. You never want to take a lead-acid based battery beyond 50% discharge, unless you have no issue parting with your money on a regular basis. Doing so even somewhat regularly will cause the cells to degrade prematurely. So right there, best case, you're at 50% of the rated capacity as usable capacity, right off the bat. Of course, it's a compromise; the closer you margin the design to 0% discharge, the longer the lifespan of the bank will be, but your up-front costs per kWh of storage will increase. Personally, I like 20%.

This would mean that for every kWh of usable capacity, I have 5kWh on the label.

Then you need to know how much you're going to use. Here, again, you're better off trimming all the excess that you can before you calculate this. If you try and design a system to accommodate your on-grid lifestyle, you're going to pay out the nose for the layout that keeps it going off-grid. Not saying it can't be done, but it's very expensive.

Take your average usage and cut it into day-sized chunks, so that you can more readily calculate your production and storage requirements. You're going to need to pad this number several times over to keep you running during inclement weather, particularly when it occurs for extended periods. A week(ish) or so, 3-5 days minimum, taking you no deeper than 50% DoD, is the general rule.

This is one of the more significant factors in terms of cost in an RE system, and is where many will skimp when they need to shave some cost. The main reason is that it compounds the 20% DoD margin mentioned above. With the examples given here, this translates into 25 times the battery capacity than what you actually use daily! 5 times the capacity for your DoD margin, running for 5 days. See why we say shave your usage?!?  :-\

This is why I said "a 100Ah battery is not actually 100Ah" earlier...

Then there is production. Keep in mind that there are losses in charging, and a general rule is that you must replace at least 125% of what you use to compensate for this. Sometimes the number is higher. You also need to be able to compensate for not only what you're using during charging, but what you used when you had no input (ie, at night), as well as anything you may have sucked out during extended runs of bad weather.

One of the higher priorities in RE is replenishing the batteries ASAP. This not only ensures you have power when you want it, but prevents damage caused by sulfation from the bank sitting partially discharged for any length of time.

What does this work out to? Energy input capability of at least 250% of your daily usage, and that's conservative. You're almost always better off with a surplus that needs to be gotten rid of than regularly finding yourself in a shortage. If you've got the money, you'd be better off bumping this number a bit as well. Going too much higher than about 500% is probably wasteful, but don't go less than 250% unless you really know how to skimp when you need to. 250% accounts for 12 hours of unobstructed sunlight each day. Not really happening unless you're tracking and in the desert in the middle of summer. 500% gets you covered in 6 hours/day unobstructed. If you have less daylight or weather that is a bit uncooperative, go for more. 1000% higher would cover you for 3 hours sun/day. As you can see, it gets expensive.

Did I mention that you should shave your usage first;D

As far as fabricating your own equipment, I can't give much advice on the making panels and/or glass thing... Personally I wouldn't mess with either one of them. For much closer to headache free operation, you're better off buying them already made with a warranty and the whole 9 yards. That's just me.

Steve
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 11:47:24 AM by Madscientist267 »
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

wooferhound

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2011, 08:29:54 PM »
So for my battery bank though can I use 12v batteries to make a 48v bank or however high I want? will the Ah be to weak from being in parallel? and could you bring it up by connecting these parallel batteries that are making Xv now in series for Ah increase? obviously the amount of batteries needed would be unreasonable if even possible but... if car batteries are all you can find would it work?

When you wire up the batteries end to end   +- +- +- +-   That is called Series, The voltage adds up but the amps stay the same

When you wire batteries with all positives connected together, and all negatives connected together
   |
-----
++++
   |
That is called Parallel, the voltages remain the same but the amps add up

You have made a coupla comments where you are saying this incorrectly . . .

Car batteries are made with Thin Plates and do not last very long and need replacing frequently.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 08:33:04 PM by wooferhound »

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2011, 08:46:09 PM »
What ended up being the fatal flaw with the stackable inverter? a quote might have been awesome :O Fabricator had 3 of them and looked like a serious member.. obviously I should just message him but if anyone has some input...

As for the AccurateTools inverters being bad
Fabricator says they are JUNK here in Post #47 on page 3 of this thread
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,144061.0.html


ChrisOlson is talking bad about them here
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,144200.0.html
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 08:50:06 PM by wooferhound »

Madscientist267

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2011, 09:30:55 PM »
Good point, Woof.

Another reason to think of battery banks in terms of kWh instead of Ah.

In terms of making the calculations, you will find that a given number of a certain capacity battery will always work out to the same amount of kWh, regardless of how they are wired.

Its clear to me at this point that you really should sit back, take some time, and read a lot more about how all of this works before you go any further.

Its an exciting field, but can be very expensive (with nothing to show for it) if you just jump in all willy nilly without learning about it first.

Don't say we didn't warn you.

Nobody here will have any problem answering questions you have about any aspect of this, the experts are spread across the spectrum. But heed what we are all telling you - slow down and do your homework first.

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

Northbay

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2011, 10:36:36 AM »
Thanks woof, I will move on from those I suppose..

okay so can you buy an over sized inverter? say I figure out what I need and I choose to run 48vdc to 120vac and buy a 6000w/12000w inverter can I use it on a smaller system say 1000w and build up?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-ADVANCED-POWER-INVERTER-6000-12000-WATT-DC-AC-/290529561311?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a4e94adf#ht_3914wt_892

also what brand of battery has high battery life with little maintenance? I was looking at website below and they carry, Exide, Raylite, Redflow, Trojan, and Sonnenschein. Is it better to get one large battery or buy multiple smaller batteries?

http://www.energymatters.com.au/deep-cycle-batteries-48v-battery-banks-c-153_369.html?alpha_filter_id=0&sort=20a

Also does anyone know the reason for evacuating a panel? could proper ventilation of the solar panel box accomplish the same task? do PV cells need heat? on top of the radiant energy or is the heat from radiant energy what excites the electrons?

madlabs

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2011, 10:58:41 AM »
North,

I see above you mention 120 VDC battery banks and the difficulty in finding any equipment higher than 48V. That is because 48V is the highest legal voltage anywhere I know of. For good reason too. A 120VDC battery bank of any size would kill you instantly if you ever happened to make a mistake. And they'd find fried bits of you all over.

There are a lot of great RE designed batteries out there but they are expensive. When I moved off grid I decided to get a  set of 10 golf car batteries. I know I'll be expanding my system in the next few years and I didn't want to buy some great batteries and then have to add new batteries to the bank a few years later. You see, it's a bad idea to mix older used batteries and new batteries. Plus, I wanted a cheap bank to learn on, although (knocks on wood) I have managed to treat my batteries llike royalty so far. Almost two years later the golf cart batteries seem to be doing great.

Your mention of 12V being easy to find  stuff for is why I decided to stay 12V for now. You mentioned car alternators, that is one of my backup charge methods. I have a lawnmower engine connected to an alt, works great and is much better on gas than running my 120VAC genny and using a forklift battery charger. Takes longer but uses less fuel.

Jonathan

Madscientist267

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2011, 11:24:05 AM »
Oversized inverter isn't a problem, just costs more, and may be somewhat less efficient at lower power usage levels. Does not present a problem other than that. An inverter's rating indicates the maximum it can deliver without risking magic smoke release. Starting with a 6000W inverter is fine, as long as you have the money to throw at it up front, and plan on 'filling it in' later.

Brands of batteries will invoke as many opinions about them as there are companies that make them. A battery's longevity is affected primarily by factors such as whether they are being used according to their designed purpose, and how they are treated and maintained.

If you use a bunch of 'maintenance free' car batteries that are designed for cranking an engine for RE, you'll end up replacing them rather regularly since a cranking battery is not designed for significant DoD (usually <5%). They also have no designated way to add water to them, so when abused (which inevitably will happen), they will lose their water, and you'll have no way of replacing it. The result is a brick in a couple of years, if that.

You want something sized appropriately, with the ability to do proper maintenance. "Deep" and "cycle" are two words to keep in mind, close together, when browsing for batteries. They are designed for much deeper discharge than cranking batteries are, and will stand up to the abuse much better. A common road travelled is with golf cart batteries. They are designed for deep discharge at moderate current levels, over and over and over again. Provided they are recharged ASAP and kept topped with water, they will provide years of trouble free service.

As for one large battery or several smaller ones... This is another one of those philosophical mindset kind of things. Some want the convenience of all the juice in one package, others want it spread out so that in the event a battery develops a problem, it can be isolated, removed and replaced without interfering with normal operation of the rest of the system. Personally, I like many smaller batteries for this reason.

There's also the concept of load balancing, in which you have 'redundant' arrays of batteries that provide the same voltage, tied in parallel. The theory here is that you have a few benefits that you don't have with a single string.

One, is that heavy loading is less likely to exacerbate a problem in a weak cell in a string. When the banks are properly balanced, no single string sees more than another, and so even when a weakened cell inevitably develops, it is not immediately a problem and doesn't make the problem worse. The other banks help take up the slack.

Another is the mentioned maintenance issue. Equalization is a part of maintaining a bank, and in general, the pros like to equalize small strings of batteries when possible. This requires disconnecting the cells to be equalized from the rest of the bank. Having another complete string (or two) still in the array allows the system to continue to function normally, simply at a reduced capacity until maintenance is complete.

Another consideration when selecting batteries is the type of battery. Even with lead-acid, there are several 'flavors' to choose from:

FLA (Flooded Lead Acid), Maintenance type - The electrolyte is liquid acid, and the cell's contents are accessible via caps for adding/checking water and testing SoC. Probably the most common configuration for RE.

FLA, Maintenance Free - Liquid electrolyte just as above, except the cells are 'sealed', and once the water is gone, it's gone. Use 'em up and toss 'em. Not generally recommended for this application.

SLA/VRLA (Sealed Lead Acid/Valve Regulated Lead Acid) - These have extensive use in RE, but depending on opinion, you'll find varying thought processes behind why they are in use. They are sealed, meaning you cannot add water, and require a more stringent charge/discharge control philosophy, but do have benefits in some situations.

AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) - Like SLA/VRLA, AGM is a 'maintenance free' version of the lead-acid chemistry, and behaves similarly to an SLA electrically. The primary benefit is in the way the cells are constructed; they are generally more tolerant to abuse than normal SLA/VRLA. Again, philosophy applies, and use case influences whether they are a viable storage solution.

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

ghurd

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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2011, 12:19:26 PM »
Still not sure where you are getting these numbers.

6000/12000W 12V inverter?  Yikes.
12000W 12V surge is 1000A.  The wire feeding it would have to be solid copper 7/8" diameter.
6000W 12V is 500A.  Do you have any idea how Giant a battery that can supply 500A longer than a long surge is?  It's huge.

4 of us spent a week on a house boat.  Lots of lights, big screen TV, DVD player, regular microwave, regular fridge, regular everything.  The inverter was an old 2512 (2500W).

Going back and quoting myself, "(if the only place you can buy something like that is from one guy on ebay, it has no UL listing, and no real RE retailers sell them, take that as a sign)"
Not only is that 6000W inverter in the same classification, but it is from the same guy selling the junk stackable things!

If you want to cut corners on the inverter, get something like a Vector.  It's a known name, from an actual company, selling stuff that works.
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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2011, 03:31:13 PM »
Hi Northbay,
Firstly: welcome to the board!  I have to chip in when a new enthusiastic member joins - particularly one from Canada (grew up in Shawville, BTW)

I've tried to read though but I haven't found it yet:  what kind of land do you have?  Have you looked into the solar and wind energy available from the NRC and the Wind Atlas?

My personal experience tells me that the right place to start, if starting from scratch on an off-grid RE system, is to look at the resource available, at the needs of your house/cabin/tent/whatever, and then work out how you're going to meet the needs with solar and/or wind/hydro/geothermal etc.  Far too soon to pick your favourite inverter.

My current approach is to dabble, experiment, and get lots of hands-on practice before such a move.  I can count on roughly 15 Amp-hours from my two 130Wp solar panels every day.  On a 24 Volt battery bank charging up to 27V, that equals 405 Watt-hours per day.  Since the power is only used in my barn, the batteries are usually full.  If I tried to use it for all the house loads, it would fall short by a factor of about 20 of course!  That said, I have hooked it up to the house on days the grid was down and the batteries lasted for plenty long enough, being thrifty with my consumption.

There's not much specific that you can learn from my own example - I'm providing it just because right now what I think you should do is learn as much as you can about the wind and the sun.  Then you will realize just how much equipment and machinery and wiring and STUFF it takes to really power a home.
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Re: Designing starter setup that is expandable, need help
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2011, 05:17:16 PM »
Well said gentlemen! I've been tinkering with this RE stuff for less than a year and I've probably spent close to $400 and I scrounge. If you don't get the basics down and go headlong into this, without a game plan, you can waste a whole bunch of cash.   Kevin
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