Author Topic: Which turbine produces more power! (Read 5032 times)

Ideas1400 · « **on:** April 14, 2011, 04:19:12 PM »

Hi

I am thinking about getting or building myself a wind turbines. But I am not sure about the type of turbine I choose! I want to get 3000 to 4500 Watts of power out of the turbines. So I can run my computers all day with the power of my turbines. Which one is more efficient, VAWT Savonius, HAWT toweredor VAWT Darrieus.

There is not so much wind here all year around so I was thinking about some things like this one! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsNwAHsf5Vo&feature=related

Any ideas? If I can build this one I would be cool! I want to know how much money would it talk to build one and/or buy one!

tanner0441 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2011, 04:35:06 PM »

Hi

If you had read many of the posts on here you would not be asking that question. Also 3500 to 4000 watts is a lot of power to expect continuously.

You say you are in a poor wind area, but mention nothing else about your site, is it open in all directions, or are you surrounded by buildings or trees, what height can you mount a HAWT?

You will also read that HAWT, intrinsically produce more power for a given wind than VAWT for a given size blade type.

Let people know what you have then ask how best you can use what you have.

Good luck with the reading..

Brian.

taylorp035 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2011, 04:54:41 PM »

If you have never built a turbine before, I would start off by building a small HAWT (the conventional style). This way, you can learn about what to expect (cost, work, and power output) and how windy it really is in your location. I have built several 5 - 8 ft diameter HAWTs, with a total of about $40 spent in total. I have learned an immense amount by testing different blades, generators, and diameters.

Also, don't try building a HAWT if you want more than a few watts. There are a lot difficult technical reasons for a beginner to figure out to make a successful one.

As tanner0441 said, 3500 to 4500 watts continuous is a lot of power, way more than any windmill will put out on average. Probably something in the <100 W range is more likely.

Search around the site, you will find plenty of designs to get you started, no matter what your resources are.

Good luck!

SparWeb · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2011, 05:40:25 PM »

Quote

Which turbine produces more power!

Who cares!?

If you say you want to run a set of computers on wind, you need to generate enough ENERGY in a day. The peak power is nearly irrelevant.
If you insist on having the turbine on a roof-top, you have an additional penalty with so much turbulence. That turbine in the video is turning, yes, but probably producing less than 100 watts of power. In a day, that will be maybe 2.4 kiloWatt-hours of energy. Compare that to the daily energy demand of your computers.

Rover · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2011, 05:58:59 PM »

Got to agree with SparWeb...

The amount of power, that you are asking about , shoot I'll lower it to 3K Watts, if continuous is 3kWx24X30 (rough month) > 2000 kilowatt hours. That is over what some normal households take in a month from the grid (I know since that's about what I take). Its a good goal ... a tad on the optimistic side without more information

Are you currently grid connected? trying to go green ? trying to save money? money not an object? very big server room ? ( I have 3 in my house + various PCs etc, and combined with air conditioning/heat, cooking, lights , TVs , etc etc.. still not close to the mark you are looking for in a month)

give us a few more clues....what you are asking about is far above the normal DIY. Is it possible?, sure.. we landed on the moon, everything is ... but rare at this scale.

DanB · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2011, 12:47:03 AM »

Quote from: Ideas1400 on April 14, 2011, 04:19:12 PM

Hi

I am thinking about getting or building myself a wind turbines. But I am not sure about the type of turbine I choose! I want to get 3000 to 4500 Watts of power out of the turbines. So I can run my computers all day with the power of my turbines. Which one is more efficient, VAWT Savonius, HAWT toweredor VAWT Darrieus.

There is not so much wind here all year around so I was thinking about some things like this one! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsNwAHsf5Vo&feature=related

Any ideas? If I can build this one I would be cool! I want to know how much money would it talk to build one and/or buy one!

Interesting video and like most of the VAWT stuff on youtube, for some reason 'comments have been disabled'

HAWT is more efficient.
You need a tall tower.
There is no magic here.... wind is free, the equipment (even if you build it yourself) will be fairly expensive.
I wish I could tell you better news!
For me - off gird... it works really well. I run computers, satellite modem, lights, radios, stereos with vacuum tubes, welders etc... fine. If I could figure my cost of energy (batteries etc.... and consider their cost and lifespan) I probably pay about $0.30/kWh and mine is a cheap, home made system, all the components were built by me, or purchased off ebay at 'bargain prices' But I do love it... I went to town last night after work here, my batteries were at 47.8V. 'no wind' (according to my neighbors).... got home this morning and Im at 52 Volts! And the wind has blown today so stereo, welder, computer all are fine and the wind turbine is heating my shop. So it's good stuff and it works, but....

so good luck! It's fun stuff and very rewarding but don't plan to save money if you have the grid and you're really getting adventurous if you go the VAWT route.

Ideas1400 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2011, 01:55:43 AM »

Hi,

Thank you for your generous replies. Wow, I didn't knew I have to mention other things too. I live in an urban area! My house is a three story building. That is I can mount any devices at 30 to 40 feet about the ground without any towers or poles (if they are not required) but if I have to mount a pole the height can be maximum to 50 feet. That is the federal restriction for the area I live in. I don't think its fair but for some reason the authorities are not explaining much! There are sever building taller than my house, one that is two houses to the left is 50 feet in height, same goes for the another one two houses to the right! One that is behind is 40 feet high. So I am guessing after reading all the replies that I will need a tower!

Sorry that I didnt explained alot. I do not need 3000 watts all day, its only for 8 or 9 hours, if 12 hours that would be amazing! But if 24 hours is possible that would be GREAT! Although 8 hours would be GREAT too! I am trying to run all my three computers as servers, plus air conditioning, tv, lights. I am going green and also trying to save money! Problem is I have never worked on electrical stuff, except computers!!! And I do not have alot of time to spare! So I am expecting 2 hours everyday to work on the turbine! Again I do not know about how much time and effort is required. So still have to decide DIY or purchased turbine.

I am reading some of the posts on this site so get some picture in my mind. I do not know alot about wind turbines so as soon as I learn more I will mention here.

I have so many questions in mind like do all turbines need 3 blades or can we have 6? But I will read some posts first before asking more questions.

I am willing to experiment on smaller ones that would be a nice way to learn before any big builds.

TrackerJack · « **Reply #7 on:** April 15, 2011, 02:10:10 AM »

I am using a 40 ft. low cube cargo container to make a tower by placing it up on one end and placing a 305 gal. water tank on top of a frame built on top of the tower. This will give me close to a 60 ft. head which should result in my water pressure being well over 25 lbs. at the business end. Between the bottom of the tank and top end of the container ( 6ft. ) I want to build a VAWT. I thought to ask the same question. I notice no one answered the ?. I have built 8 HAWTs and now will build something different. I too would like to know ( Which one is more efficient)...

Watt · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2011, 02:23:38 AM »

Quote from: Ideas1400 on April 15, 2011, 01:55:43 AM

Hi,

Thank you for your generous replies. Wow, I didn't knew I have to mention other things too. I live in an urban area! My house is a three story building. That is I can mount any devices at 30 to 40 feet about the ground without any towers or poles (if they are not required) but if I have to mount a pole the height can be maximum to 50 feet. That is the federal restriction for the area I live in. I don't think its fair but for some reason the authorities are not explaining much! There are sever building taller than my house, one that is two houses to the left is 50 feet in height, same goes for the another one two houses to the right! One that is behind is 40 feet high. So I am guessing after reading all the replies that I will need a tower!

Sorry that I didnt explained alot. I do not need 3000 watts all day, its only for 8 or 9 hours, if 12 hours that would be amazing! But if 24 hours is possible that would be GREAT! Although 8 hours would be GREAT too! I am trying to run all my three computers as servers, plus air conditioning, tv, lights. I am going green and also trying to save money! Problem is I have never worked on electrical stuff, except computers!!! And I do not have alot of time to spare! So I am expecting 2 hours everyday to work on the turbine! Again I do not know about how much time and effort is required. So still have to decide DIY or purchased turbine.

I am reading some of the posts on this site so get some picture in my mind. I do not know alot about wind turbines so as soon as I learn more I will mention here. I have so many questions in mind like do all turbines need 3 blades or can we have 6? But I will read some posts first before asking more questions. I am willing to experiment on smaller ones that would be a nice way to learn before any big builds.

Have you thought of putting up a weather station to log your wind direction and speed? Unless your buildings ( neighbor housing ) are several hundreds or more feet ( hundreds of meters even ) apart, I fear you not fair well with any wind source. Have you thought of solar?

SnowGhost · « **Reply #9 on:** April 15, 2011, 05:13:46 AM »

Quote from: Ideas1400 on April 15, 2011, 01:55:43 AM

Hi,

T I live in an urban area! My house is a three story building. That is I can mount any devices at 30 to 40 feet about the ground without any towers or poles (if they are not required) but if I have to mount a pole the height can be maximum to 50 feet.

Look at http://www.warwickwindtrials.org.uk/ and read the final report at http://www.warwickwindtrials.org.uk/resources/Warwick+Wind+Trials+Final+Report+.pdf

It's truly dismal and dismaying at how poorly wind turbines work in a urban area (in short it's utterly sucktacular).

Ideas1400 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2011, 02:49:19 PM »

Hmmm No wind in the urban areas?

DamonHD · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2011, 03:02:12 PM »

My little turbine doesn't even turn more than about 10% of the time.

Solar PV is a much more reliable source for most urbanites.

Rgds

Damon

Bruce S · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2011, 04:05:13 PM »

Quote from: Ideas1400 on April 15, 2011, 02:49:19 PM

Hmmm No wind in the urban areas?

It's not that there isn't wind, just that most ALL of what comes around will be turbulent and not very usable for HAWT turbines.
Unless you can get a good 20 feet above the last obstacle ( Higher would be even better) there's very little non-turbulent wind available to make good use of.
A bummer WE know and they surely are funner to watch than PVs, but ya do with what ya got.

Cheers;
Bruce S

tanner0441 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 15, 2011, 04:09:06 PM »

Hi

I will pop back in here. I live on the outskirts of a small town I have trees 50 yards away to the north and my closest neighbour in any direction (apart from the adjoining house) is nearly 100 yards. When the wind is blowing it can feel as if it is trying to blow you over, but never from the same direction for more than a few seconds. I previously lived in a coastal rural setting and the wind blew from one direction at a time.

I have a small turbine, 200W, it will turn on it's yaw axis like a ballerina on steroids but the blades are not spinning fast enough to reach cut in. A couple of years ago when I joined this site, I was given lots of advice and comments on turbulence, so I covered the end wall of my house with bits of bluetack and ribbons. I was able to see the turbulence in action, bits of ribbon waving in all directions.

Mounting a turbine on a building is not going to give anywhere near optimum performance, and the chances of vibration damage and noise are real.

Solar PV if you have a south facing option is a better choice. I also have 60 W of solar and it gives me much more power than 200 W of wind.

In the set up you are looking at I can't see you ever reaching 3000 W for 9 hours..

Keep reading, make a small model to prove your site, and don't upset the grid company just yet.

Brian.

TrackerJack · « **Reply #14 on:** April 15, 2011, 04:14:27 PM »

Ideas1400 ... I will be going with this style for different reasons.

edit: Fixed your post so the pic would show. bruce s

Bruce S · « **Reply #15 on:** April 15, 2011, 04:20:33 PM »

Quote from: TrackerJack on April 15, 2011, 04:14:27 PM

Ideas1400 ... I will be going with this style for different reasons.

That unit will still not give him the 3Kw he's looking for. NOT even close.
IF IT does for you come back with a years worth of data and let the rest of us know so we can enjoy to.

Cheers
Bruce S

TrackerJack · « **Reply #16 on:** April 15, 2011, 04:36:02 PM »

It's sound to me that he want achieve that with a HAWT... S.A.

bzrqmy · « **Reply #17 on:** April 15, 2011, 06:20:21 PM »

Ideas1400,

I remember the days when I was first looking into wind power. I had no idea what was possible or how hard it was to actually generate power. Don't get me wrong, the wind is really blowing out right now and I am making lots of power. Nowhere near 3000 watts. When we talk watts, we are talking the power the generator is making at any moment. All I can say is do a lot of reading and build a small turbine and experiment. You will then realize that a horizontal turbine like the one in the video moving as slow as it was is not making any power what so ever. There are a lot of scammers and false data out there. I have talked to several people that have bought commercial turbines. Every one of them have been dissapoointed at the turbine's performance. Myself on the other hand am amazed that something I made in my garage is making electricity. Sometimes too much, I have to waste it as heat because my batteries are too full.

Good luck and welcome!

TrackerJack · « **Reply #18 on:** April 15, 2011, 06:40:17 PM »

Quote

Ideas1400,

I remember the days when I was first looking into wind power. I had no idea what was possible or how hard it was to actually generate power. Don't get me wrong, the wind is really blowing out right now and I am making lots of power. Nowhere near 3000 watts. When we talk watts, we are talking the power the generator is making at any moment. All I can say is do a lot of reading and build a small turbine and experiment. You will then realize that a horizontal turbine like the one in the video moving as slow as it was is not making any power what so ever. There are a lot of scammers and false data out there. I have talked to several people that have bought commercial turbines. Every one of them have been dissapoointed at the turbine's performance. Myself on the other hand am amazed that something I made in my garage is making electricity. Sometimes too much, I have to waste it as heat because my batteries are too full.

Good luck and welcome!

Well said

fabricator · « **Reply #19 on:** April 17, 2011, 08:54:55 AM »

I have an otherpowwer style 17' hawt, it is in a wide open wind area although it is not on a high enough tower yet, we have been having 35-40 mph winds the last several days and I've seen just over 2kw at times for brief periods, in the year it has been up it has NEVER come close to 3kw let alone for hours at a time, right now this machine is making about 10 kWh per week, this is a big machine in a fair wind area, you can do the math.

dloefffler · « **Reply #20 on:** April 17, 2011, 12:11:08 PM »

Regarding cost per Kwh:

This is a after tax cost, most of us pay 50% taxes if you include employment taxes, federal, state, and the forgotten sales tax on purchased power - say 7% which is 14% pre tax. Thus DanB's .30/Kwh is probably closer to .15/Kwh and given how things are going in the generating world, probably not that far from future costs.

And, it looks like fun.

I am on a ridge in SE MN where it seems the wind blows all the time, can't wait to get a turbine flying and watch the whole thing blow into the next county. Isn't that what the learning curve is all about?

Dennis

fabricator · « **Reply #21 on:** April 17, 2011, 12:29:32 PM »

When I get my power bill I divide the bottom line, what they say I owe, by the number of kWh I used, that is the real cost you pay per kWh, it's usually around twenty cents per kWh.

TomW · « **Reply #22 on:** April 17, 2011, 12:39:54 PM »

Quote from: fabricator on April 17, 2011, 12:29:32 PM

When I get my power bill I divide the bottom line, what they say I owe, by the number of kWh I used, that is the real cost you pay per kWh, it's usually around twenty cents per kWh.

Yeah, me too!

All the rest is smoke and mirrors. Total bill divided by KWH on the bill is my "cost" for power!

Period. End Quote.

Tom

Ideas1400 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 17, 2011, 02:26:23 PM »

Wow! So many replies!

I was reading stuff about other members made on the site! I realize I am no where near the experience you guys have!

Had an idea! What if I get myself a car battery charger alternator! And get some thick PVC pipes. Cut the pipes into shape of the blades! Get the alternator to 3 phase! And attach the PVC blades to the car alternator and the alternator to a pole. That would be an experiment that would give me a rough idea of the wind in my area!

I have been thinking about the solar too! But how many panels would I need for the modest amount of power, say 200W or 65W! I am searching for it on the net right now!

Ideas1400 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 17, 2011, 03:16:39 PM »

Ok read about the Solar panels! They sound cool! But I will dig into wind too! Any help with wiring a car alternator into a 3 phase!?

SparWeb · « **Reply #25 on:** April 17, 2011, 06:44:31 PM »

Quote from: Ideas1400 on April 17, 2011, 03:16:39 PM

Any help with wiring a car alternator into a 3 phase!?

This is a bit difficult to pull it off. The car alternator needs about 5 or 6 feet of prop to make it turn... maybe more and depends on the model. Trouble is that it has to turn 2000 RPM to do any good!!! The speeds don't match, can you imagine a 6-foot long board swinging around at 2000 RPM? You have to take the car alt apart, modify it a fair bit, and then you'll have an alternator that will work at a more reasonable speed. By the time you're done this you've probably invested as much time and money as building an axial-flux alternator from scratch. And the resulting modified car alt still won't be as suitable for wind as the axial. For one thing the bearings will die after a few months, too.

scoraigwind · « **Reply #26 on:** April 18, 2011, 02:59:58 AM »

Quote from: fabricator on April 17, 2011, 08:54:55 AM

I have an otherpowwer style 17' hawt, it is in a wide open wind area although it is not on a high enough tower yet, we have been having 35-40 mph winds the last several days and I've seen just over 2kw at times for brief periods, in the year it has been up it has NEVER come close to 3kw let alone for hours at a time, right now this machine is making about 10 kWh per week, this is a big machine in a fair wind area, you can do the math.

I don't know at what point the otherpower 17 footer is meant to furl, and what the maximum output would be, but as far as energy per day I would expect it to average a bit more than 10 kWh of energy. So when you report 10 kWh per week I can only conclude that your site is not windy enough or something is wrong there. It's nice to get whatever energy you can but it does vary a lot with the site. And it can be very rewarding to have a wind turbine in a windy place. Here the average windspeed has been about 5 m/s (about 11 mph) over the last year and we can expect about 7 kWh per day from a 12 foot turbine on average. A 17 footer should roughly double that. 14 kWh per day is not much in north american terms but in europe it's a respectable domestic electricity consumption.

DanB · « **Reply #27 on:** April 18, 2011, 10:34:26 AM »

Yes - it's a bit off topic but Fabricator, 10kWh/week for a 17' machine is not good....
Lots of smaller/badly sited machines on short towers around here are doing lots better than that. When I had a 17' machine here I'd often see >2kW sustained and brief peaks > 6kW although it furled at less than half that.

Ideas1400 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:22:35 PM »

Ok who has a good axial-flux alternator design that has already been tested! If I can get the calculation formula for Coil, magnetic flux and rotation speed to calculate ampere and watts that would be cool!

Ideas1400 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:25:56 PM »

What do you guys think about this design?

http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_30&products_id=188

I got this from this website

http://www.scoraigwind.com/

clockmanFRA · « **Reply #30 on:** April 18, 2011, 04:23:34 PM »

Hi Ideas1400.

In the last 4 years I have built/manufactured 3 of Hugh Piggotts designs 3.6m, (actually mine ended up at 3.7m). His book is well written and releases to the wider World information that has been gained over a lifetime. I have worked in engineering most of my life and in my opinion his machines are hardy and yet simple and easy to make, (nearly the Holy Grail of any machine).
Both Hugh Piggotts's and Dan Bartmann wind turbine books are essential reading.
I have space around my turbines for a reasonable consistant wind, but payback time on just the materails may take a heck of long time.
However, very recently PV panels from China have increased in quality and decreased in price.
Have Fun.

Volvo farmer · « **Reply #31 on:** April 18, 2011, 04:46:46 PM »

Quote from: Ideas1400 on April 18, 2011, 03:25:56 PM

What do you guys think about this design?

http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_30&products_id=188

That's the one you want. I have had mine up for a year now and it has survived some good howlers. I think most of the bugs have been worked out of that design.

fabricator · « **Reply #32 on:** April 18, 2011, 05:39:36 PM »

Quote from: DanB on April 18, 2011, 10:34:26 AM

Yes - it's a bit off topic but Fabricator, 10kWh/week for a 17' machine is not good....
Lots of smaller/badly sited machines on short towers around here are doing lots better than that. When I had a 17' machine here I'd often see >2kW sustained and brief peaks > 6kW although it furled at less than half that.

This machine has the original 48 volt stator in it and I'm running it at 24 volts, I just don't like the cost of 48 volt electronics options out there, it's 25' off the ground, it runs stalled so I can leave it running in any conditions, because of the tower I'm stuck with for now I just don't feel a pressing need to change anything.

News:

Author Topic: Which turbine produces more power! (Read 5032 times)

Watt