Author Topic: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)  (Read 32584 times)

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birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2012, 06:45:58 PM »
you've talked about a few motors, give us a recap on which motor (specs) your getting ~40v with a thumb spin...

adam

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2012, 08:03:20 PM »
you've talked about a few motors, give us a recap on which motor (specs) your getting ~40v with a thumb spin...

adam

 Okay, I already had ordered the 95v, 300 rpm @ 1.6amp rating DC motor from Magnetek... This is the unit.

 I have made a quick video as well showing the output that I will post later on tonight from my youtube channel.

 Okay, here is aquick 35sec vid of a thumb twister voltage reading....

« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 08:31:58 PM by Mastiffman »

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2012, 08:32:55 PM »
you've talked about a few motors, give us a recap on which motor (specs) your getting ~40v with a thumb spin...

adam

 Okay here is a quick 35sec vid of the thumb twist voltage test I was referring to.


birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2012, 08:35:39 PM »
specs on the exact motor is what i was getting at...  AKA
Rpm rating
Amp rating
volt rating
#poles
ect....

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2012, 08:45:15 PM »
specs on the exact motor is what i was getting at...  AKA
Rpm rating
Amp rating
volt rating
#poles
ect....

300rpms
1.6amps
95v
I"m not completely sure about the number of poles....? Sorry.

 Here is video that shows a few tuerns and a voltage reading a a quick shot at the label specs...


birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2012, 09:01:20 PM »
thanks for the info. 

that thing needs minimal rpm to get to battery charging voltage.  though it also has a really small amperage rating...  IE:  easily burnt out! 

if it were mine, and i really wanted to use it, i'd probably put a pvc blade set on it.  maybe 5 blades with a 3' diameter. 

ideally you could make the blades just efficient enough to charge in almost any wind (10-30w),  yet poor enough to not let it rev up too high and smoke the motor. 

just some thoughts

adam

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2012, 11:43:26 PM »
Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

 I"m considering a Verticle Axis setup.... Would this be a bad idea?

 Also, what batteries should I go with. I will spend the money for good ones. I want something that will last and be easily added to with the same model in the future. This will be the same system as the Solar Panle Setup over in that thread...

birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2012, 11:50:26 AM »
personally, i'd stay away from a VAWT (vert axis wind turbine).  im not saying it can't be done, but its fairly rare for us to see a well designed vawt that puts out decent power for its size.  many folks try, and very few get it just right.  just type in vawt on youtube...  notice how many are spinning, yet have no alternator attached?  at that point, they're just yard art...

HAWTs on the other hand seem to be an easier task to handle.  many folks can esily produce a unit that works fairly well.  instructions are well documented and easy to follow.  have you purchased hugh or the dans' book?  if not, that would be the best place to start.  detailed instructions on blade carving ect.   reading either will get your head in the right spot for creating and storing juice in an offgrid situation. 

adam

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2012, 06:37:02 PM »
thanks for the info. I haven't purchased those and I honestly don't plan to. This stuff seems understandable enough. Seems one just needs to get the right combo of components together in a useable system. obviously there are many factors. but it is what it is and iwll learn as much as I can in the mean time.

I don't have any interest in carving blades. I have not enough time for something of that sort. I would wrather purcahase a nice set before that.

 By the way, have any of you ever heard of this company?

http://www.windgenkits.com/

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2012, 01:20:49 AM »
personally, i'd stay away from a VAWT (vert axis wind turbine).  im not saying it can't be done, but its fairly rare for us to see a well designed vawt that puts out decent power for its size.  many folks try, and very few get it just right.  just type in vawt on youtube...  notice how many are spinning, yet have no alternator attached?  at that point, they're just yard art...

HAWTs on the other hand seem to be an easier task to handle.  many folks can esily produce a unit that works fairly well.  instructions are well documented and easy to follow.  have you purchased hugh or the dans' book?  if not, that would be the best place to start.  detailed instructions on blade carving ect.   reading either will get your head in the right spot for creating and storing juice in an offgrid situation. 

adam

 Your suggestion of HAWT is probably goint o be the way to go for me. I breifly tried a setup for VAWT and there is a lot of drag which seems to be the case for a majority of builders. Although I have noticed a growing number of VAWT builders creating an Enclosed Turbine that disables the drag but Building a HAWT seems more economical...

 I don't have a bandsaw to make my own PVC blades. Would it be worth it to purchase a set of the low wind speed type blades? Seems like Spending money on a Bandsaw to make my own would cost the same or more as purcahsing a set that are already made for low wind speed applications...

birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2012, 03:04:18 AM »
forget pvc blades if you want to do it right.  you want blades that produce lift with a true airfoil.  pvc doesn't do this.  they are basically drag based blades, and won't ever "come to life" like a carved set will. 

carving wooden blades is way less daunting than one might think.  in fact, i don't even like the term carving...  makes it seem like we make them with a pocket knife...  :o     do you own a chainsaw?  that's a really easy way to rough them out with a jig.  otherwise a sawzall, chisel, belt sander and angle grinder (with 24 grit flap wheels) will make REALLY quick work of it!  i'll bet you could even carve blades pretty quick with a hand saw, chisel and palm sander. 

adam


Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2012, 10:57:55 AM »
forget pvc blades if you want to do it right.  you want blades that produce lift with a true airfoil.  pvc doesn't do this.  they are basically drag based blades, and won't ever "come to life" like a carved set will. 

carving wooden blades is way less daunting than one might think.  in fact, i don't even like the term carving...  makes it seem like we make them with a pocket knife...  :o     do you own a chainsaw?  that's a really easy way to rough them out with a jig.  otherwise a sawzall, chisel, belt sander and angle grinder (with 24 grit flap wheels) will make REALLY quick work of it!  i'll bet you could even carve blades pretty quick with a hand saw, chisel and palm sander. 

adam
I honestly don't have time for that, let alone the tools. I know that I could find a way to do it but is it really worth the time? I have young children, 3 English Mastiffs and about 14 Aquariums that typically get weekly water changes. Sorry, not looking for a "Pitty Party" or anything. Just communicating my thoughts...

 Where is a good place to find a Hub these days for HAWT? Anyone have a preference of company from experince?

birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2012, 11:22:16 AM »
sorry-  i got your project mixed up with someone elses.  if you've got a 1/2" shaft on that motor then the item below may work. 

like stated way above, multi blade pvc might be a good bet.  a jigsaw can easily cut them out.  no need for a bandsaw. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WIND-TURBINE-HUB-WITH-ARBOR-for-1-2-MOTOR-SHAFT-UP-TO-12-BLADES-/130724996415?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6fd1253f#ht_1054wt_1263

adam

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2012, 11:40:39 AM »
sorry-  i got your project mixed up with someone elses.  if you've got a 1/2" shaft on that motor then the item below may work. 

like stated way above, multi blade pvc might be a good bet.  a jigsaw can easily cut them out.  no need for a bandsaw. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WIND-TURBINE-HUB-WITH-ARBOR-for-1-2-MOTOR-SHAFT-UP-TO-12-BLADES-/130724996415?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6fd1253f#ht_1054wt_1263

adam

 AH, gotcha. The Motor has a 5/8" shaft and keyway. I was thinking about a Set of Raptor four baldes from Either Missouri wind and Solar or Mountain Wind.... The Raptors seem to have a Decent Design to them. If you look at some of the pics in this add they are well built in comparision to others out there. They also hubs and arbors fro 5/8" shafts... May very well do this.

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2012, 05:17:19 PM »
Okay, Here are the links to items that I'll be purchasing tomorrow morning for this motor.

1. 17mm x 5/8" Hub Adapter (this will go right my Shaft?) > http://www.mwands.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=43_44&products_id=371
2. 3x 29" long Raptor (Gen #4) Blades and 6 Blade Hub Combo > http://www.mwands.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=43_44&products_id=435


 Also, I had a question regarding the length of the body of a HAWT... wouldn't it be best to get the whole thing balanced to allow easy of rotation? Or does it being heavy in the front where the genny and blades are aid in proper resistence to the power that can push it backwards in higher speed winds?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 05:28:50 PM by Mastiffman »

spottrouble

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2012, 06:20:28 PM »
Personally I'd avoid MWS, and I'm not sure those raptor blades are worth anything more than toy swords for kids. Look at this threadhttp://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,145306.msg986850.html#msg986850 for another way to carve blades, I'm getting ready to try it myself, seems a whole lot easier (to me anyways) than the chainsaw method.

There is a member here that makes wood blades, maybe someone can provide a link to his site. Can anyone recommend other quality blades?

If you need a hub find a local steel fabricator/weldor/ machinist, and support a local small business person ;)

Kristi

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2012, 08:05:47 PM »
Personally I'd avoid MWS, and I'm not sure those raptor blades are worth anything more than toy swords for kids. Look at this threadhttp://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,145306.msg986850.html#msg986850 for another way to carve blades, I'm getting ready to try it myself, seems a whole lot easier (to me anyways) than the chainsaw method.

There is a member here that makes wood blades, maybe someone can provide a link to his site. Can anyone recommend other quality blades?

If you need a hub find a local steel fabricator/weldor/ machinist, and support a local small business person ;)

Kristi

 Thanks for the suggestions Kristi. Although, If you look at the design of the Raptors, they are actually a good design. I would recommend reading up on the reason that they make decent blades before claiming that they
Quote
"aren't worth anything more than toy swords for kids."
.

 If you haven't tried them out, I would go that far with my statements about them just yet... Just a thought. Sorry, if that offends you. over the years, I've done the same thing and have been proven very wrong numerous times. However, as stereotypically accurate of a statement that yours may be, lets see what these blade have to offer before passing full judgement on them. "Never Judge a book by it's cover."  ;)

 Anyway, I was wondering what some of you that have actully carved blades yourself or used carved blades thought about taking 3" hardwood door casing and sanding it down to blade specs being that it has Very Similar Profile from the end.

 I added a could pics from the Missouri Wind and Solar ebay page that show the Raptor Gen 4 blades with a bit more detail... As well as the end profile of a 3" door casing piece... KInd of looks a bit similar and would limit the amount of work put into the blade manufacturing process... I think that one would have to mount them on a rotor that would be tweaked on the ends where the blades would be mounted to avoid weakening the blades....


Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2012, 08:10:07 PM »
Here is another good photo that might spark some innovation... If this would work, it would DEFINTELYSpeed up the process of creating Blades!?

 What do you think and please, don't be so Quick to pass judgement on this idea and seriously examine the possibilities of innovation in the process.... it's not hard for one to use their imagination for this...  8)

Watt

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2012, 01:42:00 AM »
That bottom photo looks an awful lot like house trim for around doors.  Is that enough imagination?  May work just as well as those blades above it.

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2012, 11:33:43 AM »
That bottom photo looks an awful lot like house trim for around doors.  Is that enough imagination?  May work just as well as those blades above it.

 Or Door casing.

 This is what I was referring to when asking whether or not it would be possible to make blades out of hardwood door casing of that style...

 What do you mean by "Work just as well as The Blades above it"?

spottrouble

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2012, 03:49:09 PM »
Sorry, I thought you were asking for an opinion, so I gave mine.

I've looked at mfr's site, I see no hard data on those blades, just sales hype. If you have some hard data please share it here. What airfoil, TSR, efficiency etc. and no matter what airfoil was used, as soon as those things start flexing/fluttering  all the numbers go out the window. I was flying when I was 10, been around aviation all my life, and the paper hanging on the wall from ERAU is a hint that I might know a thing or two about airfoils.

Its your money, buy a set, lets see what they do.

Kristin

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2012, 04:07:48 PM »
Wouldn't they be technically better than a set Home made PVC blades?

birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2012, 09:02:15 PM »
with a 1.6A motor, it'll be pretty easy to burn out.  getting to charging voltage doesn't seem like an issue.  yea, i'd go pvc!  not to sound condescending, but that motor is really just a toy, and i wouldn't wast any excess money on it, because i'm guessing you'll want a bigger mill before yours is even complete!

adam

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2012, 10:02:11 PM »
with a 1.6A motor, it'll be pretty easy to burn out.  getting to charging voltage doesn't seem like an issue.  yea, i'd go pvc!  not to sound condescending, but that motor is really just a toy, and i wouldn't wast any excess money on it, because i'm guessing you'll want a bigger mill before yours is even complete!

adam

 LOL- Understandable. The Ametek Motors have less of an amp rating than this one does and the still put out a good 20 amps. Beside I'm using this all as a learning process and don't worry, I put this thing up for sale the day that I receieved it!  ;) So you hit the nail on the head with that statement my friend!

fabricator

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2012, 10:10:32 PM »
I've never seen or hear of a VAWT that had numbers that were worth a bucket of warm spit when compared to a HAWT.
Dave Moller sells excellent blades at royalwinand soalr.com, Chris Olson also recently built a machine to turn out tapered twisted blades of just about any size and has them on his website, applied magnetics also sells tapered twisted blades.
Not wanting to carve your own blades is no reason these days to buy some scam kit.
If you don't buy a machine froma big name like Bergy you might as well figure on being badly disappointed.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

fabricator

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2012, 10:12:29 PM »
That bottom photo looks an awful lot like house trim for around doors.  Is that enough imagination?  May work just as well as those blades above it.

Yep, that's good old pine chair rail alright.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2012, 10:21:37 PM »
I've never seen or hear of a VAWT that had numbers that were worth a bucket of warm spit when compared to a HAWT.
Dave Moller sells excellent blades at royalwinand soalr.com, Chris Olson also recently built a machine to turn out tapered twisted blades of just about any size and has them on his website, applied magnetics also sells tapered twisted blades.
Not wanting to carve your own blades is no reason these days to buy some scam kit.
If you don't buy a machine froma big name like Bergy you might as well figure on being badly disappointed.

 Yeah, I'm going Hawt now, Not Vawt... I'll have to check some of those suggestions out. I purchased a set of the Gen 4 Raptor blades already last night. They are already on their way. So if they are Crapers then I guess that I'll just resell them and inform the buyer of my expereince with them and report the details. If I had more time I would try carving my own. Maybe later on when I have a little more experience under my belt....

 Well lets try and keep things optomistic for what I have to work with of a budget and time... Everything will work in one way or another... Even if it take some expereimenting with my environment.

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2012, 10:23:02 PM »
That bottom photo looks an awful lot like house trim for around doors.  Is that enough imagination?  May work just as well as those blades above it.

Yep, that's good old pine chair rail alright.

 LOL- Yeah that one is...
 
 but comeone guys, I know that you can see the potential. IF it were made of hardwood and sanded down to the proper specs... There is no reason why it wouldn't work.  :P

Watt

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2012, 10:57:46 PM »
That bottom photo looks an awful lot like house trim for around doors.  Is that enough imagination?  May work just as well as those blades above it.

Yep, that's good old pine chair rail alright.

 LOL- Yeah that one is...
 
 but comeone guys, I know that you can see the potential. IF it were made of hardwood and sanded down to the proper specs... There is no reason why it wouldn't work.  :P

HONESTLY!!!!  I see more potential in the cedar fence posts and wire we keep our cattle rounded up in.  It really seems to me as if you are looking to find an off the shelf stock of wood you don't have to do much carving too.  If that is the case, build a door frame wind turbine that will not work or a loud plastic blade turbine that looks cool and slows the wind going through the rotor or.....  Buy some real blades already or build the right ones. 

When I decided I had wasted enough time and money trying to save the money I'd been wasting looking for what everyone else has failed with, I bought what was suggested and began making progress.  These guys know their stuff.  Take their suggestions and make some power.

I promise you this, once you build, by hand, the turbine with the proper rotors- you will find out how the wind makes them turn and turn to make power.  Then, you can progressively try new, to you, designs and material which you can make ( mold ) to your specific generator.  Until you have made something work, you are going ask why not and how come and what for....  Good luck, now go make a few volts. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 11:04:59 PM by Watt »

spottrouble

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2012, 01:19:54 AM »
Wouldn't they be technically better than a set Home made PVC blades?

My best answer would be an unenthusiastic "maybe?". Well since you already bought the raptor blades how about whipping up some PVC blades and testing the differences, not being a smartass, I really would like to know :D

I'm on my first wind turbine build, its just a small treadmill motor job, for the same amount of work I could be building a larger unit, but I am learning a lot, and it will make the larger build easier.

Kristi

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2012, 10:43:11 AM »
I don't even remember the amount of these threads where a newbie comes along and wants to build a turbine from junk yard parts and some kind of funky blades, then when it's done wants to know "what's wrong with my DMM"? LOL.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2012, 12:45:26 PM »
 Let me just start by stating that I'm not intensionally trying to be argumentative in the statements below. I've been a member of Many Forums, for Many Years now and I know how online communication is and can be. So just understand that I'm simply trying to get a point across here.

 Read on....  ;D

HONESTLY!!!!  I see more potential in the cedar fence posts and wire we keep our cattle rounded up in.  It really seems to me as if you are looking to find an off the shelf stock of wood you don't have to do much carving too.  If that is the case, build a door frame wind turbine that will not work or a loud plastic blade turbine that looks cool and slows the wind going through the rotor or.....  Buy some real blades already or build the right ones. 

When I decided I had wasted enough time and money trying to save the money I'd been wasting looking for what everyone else has failed with, I bought what was suggested and began making progress.  These guys know their stuff.  Take their suggestions and make some power.

I promise you this, once you build, by hand, the turbine with the proper rotors- you will find out how the wind makes them turn and turn to make power.  Then, you can progressively try new, to you, designs and material which you can make ( mold ) to your specific generator.  Until you have made something work, you are going ask why not and how come and what for....  Good luck, now go make a few volts.

 The only thing, taking into consideration that it would be a hardwood casing and sanded to proper specs (because there is Technically no other difference as Oak is Oak, Cherry is Cherry, as Long as the grain runs the length of the Blade), Is that the angle of approach of the blade once sanded would have to  prepared with another piece of wood with the same grain direction properly cure to the end of the blade that attaches to the rotor. This would be the only thing that would Might prove to be challenging..
 
 You have to be able to see my point here.. It is possible. Still dont' know if I would do it. but it was merely an observation. And if one doesn't have the tools to start from scratch on a carving a set of blades for a rotor, then why not start, if able, with somethig a little further along in the process?

My best answer would be an unenthusiastic "maybe?". Well since you already bought the raptor blades how about whipping up some PVC blades and testing the differences, not being a smartass, I really would like to know :D

I'm on my first wind turbine build, its just a small treadmill motor job, for the same amount of work I could be building a larger unit, but I am learning a lot, and it will make the larger build easier.

Kristi

 So in essence, you honestly don't have much say in the area? No Offense of course. if you are in the middle of your first build as well, we are in the same frame of reference, psychiologically.

P.S. Why so unenthusiastic? Enthusiasm is the very epitome of scientific advances...  ;)


I don't even remember the amount of these threads where a newbie comes along and wants to build a turbine from junk yard parts and some kind of funky blades, then when it's done wants to know "what's wrong with my DMM"? LOL.


 I don't remember stating that I've purchased anything from a junkyard, Fab? So why deos it have to be "Carved out Wooden Blades" that are the golden child here.... Out of all of the threads that I've read, I don't think that one person has technically given the reason for the popularity of the Carved Wooden Blades on this site, Other than to prove that you can do it. Or that you are willing to take everyone's word that you "Should" make a set...

 Can someone explain what the reason is for needing Carved Woodedn Blades to successfully produce a Decent Windmill that produces acceptable power?

 Maybe it's becasue of the weight of them? Or the pride is saying that you careved them yourself? Thanks in advance!

 Listen, I can understand everyone's points here.
 


Watt

  • Guest
Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2012, 01:20:47 PM »
" Can someone explain what the reason is for needing Carved Woodedn Blades to successfully produce a Decent Windmill that produces acceptable power? "



I think it is time for you to do some research on this subject.