Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)

[Mastiffman]

 Hello to all.

 A bit of background behind my decision to start a build...

 Been an African Cichlid Keeper for many years now (20) and been Breeding them for some time now as well. I have built a moderate collection of Tanks, ranging from 10gallons, 4 Chambered Farm Tanks and all of the way up to a couple of 6ft 180 gallons. I run larger filters on my 4 larger tanks that consume 50 w/hr each as well as Heating and Lighting. So with all of the 14 tanks that I now have I'm looking to cut back on the bills now. The Wind in our area has picked up a bit more in the last few years and we decided to take down a couple of Large trees on the South Side of our .5 arce lot that were flagging the last 2 years due to DE Disease. The steady winds seem to be more frequent in these last couple of years. Which has lead me thinking that I may be able to use a Wind Genny to charge a bank of batteries to run some of, if not all of my Tank Equipment off of. Which has lead to this site, among many others.

 So after doing some research, I found a New 95w 300rpm DC motor for just under $137.... My calculations yield 3.16rpms / volt. I've read that around 14.4v-14.8v is best for Charging 12v Banks. So if I'm looking at roughly 80% efficiency out this Motor I'm going to need to aim for a good 18v-18.5v output which would be around 58.5rpms from the Windmill.

 I'm think that for lower starting windspeed I would go with a 6 blade setup. I'm not sure of the length though. So I'm looking for some advice on that as well as a few other things that we can get into latter on...

Such as Tower Construction
Stop Switch
Better to build a Charge Controller or Purchase one?
Optimal Number of Batters in a bank, etc...

Thanks in advance!

[fabricator]

Welcome, piece of advice #1 use three blades, any more than three are for water pumpers not power generators.

[Mastiffman]

Gotcha. Thanks for the advice. I was under the impression that more would provide and easier start in lower winds... I take it this is wrong then.

[tecker]

Whats the voltage of the motor

[taylorp035]

If I do the math backwards,  300 rpm / 3.16 rpm/volt = 95 volts.  If the motor is only rated for  95 W, then the getting much more than 1 amp may cause the coils to heat up  (95 Watts = 95 volts * x amps -->  x = 1 amp).  I'm not saying that it isn't a good motor (58 rpm cut in would be nice).  My 2 cents.

Taylor

[Mastiffman]

If I do the math backwards,  300 rpm / 3.16 rpm/volt = 95 volts.  If the motor is only rated for  95 W, then the getting much more than 1 amp may cause the coils to heat up  (95 Watts = 95 volts * x amps -->  x = 1 amp).  I'm not saying that it isn't a good motor (58 rpm cut in would be nice).  My 2 cents.

Taylor

Thanks for Chimming in...

 Yep, 95v is the correct number. So if they "may" cause the coils to heat up, is this a guaranteed issue that Will Indeed happen, no matter what? (This may sound stupid...) Or is the label something that merely references the Engineers "Basic" specs for running it as "A motor"... Just trying to fully understand the capabilities of this thing, IF Any at all!?  What is an Ample Goal for Amps? Or does that really depend on the Whole setup? If so.... I'm taking recommendations currently!

EDIT: (added motors Specs)

 This was Copied from the Sellers web page.... I Also checked the Specs on the Ametek 99v and it has .59 amps. So would this indicate that this motor is Similar in Quality? I'll be testing the amp output when I receive the unit in the mail as well and will report back with the results.

 40C is around 104F... Doesn't really seem like much heat...

Specs:
Part No: 22204200
Cat No: D009
Model No: N4030D-80B
HP: 1/12
RPM: 300
Duty: Cont
V. Arm: 95
A. Arm: 1.6
Class Insulation: F
40 C Ambient
Encl: TENV
Shaft: 15mm x 64mm (Approx)

 Am I looking at a bicycle motor or what? Don't like beating around the bush, So Let me Have It....

[gsw999]

You will be better off getting hugh piggots book and trying to build a proper turbine, as if you get an ametek motor you will likely just end up building a decent one instead, DIY wind is like a drug once you start you cant stop, peace!!

[sean_ork]

I suspect this is geared motor

[tecker]

Very small wire will need some monitoring .

[sean_ork]

hmmm maybe it's not a geared motor - but

I think the OP is doing this backwards

wouldn't it be better to accurately work out how much power he is looking to produce by summing all of the equipment together, and arriving at a Kw/day or such like figure - and then decide on the size of mill required

I see mention of 50w/h - that motor won't be able to keep up with even that tiny demand - let alone the heating and lighting requirement

calculate the required power - then - build the mill to suit

[fabricator]

If you are going to use that motor, instead of building a purpose built alternator, estimate want you will spend for the rest of the system, tower, guy wires, cement, wire, then take that money and buy a couple solar cells, you will guaranteed make far more power than with that motor, guaranteed.

[Frank S]

I think I'm going to have to agree with Fab here, about your project.
however if you are just wanting to learn and generate enough electricity to show upon a multimeter or charge a small 12 v motorcycle battery have a go.
 I have been working on a design for a 5 to 30 KW generator for a month now so far I have a fair cad design on one but it has grown exponentially in size  the finished  design will most likely weigh in around 800KG and require 6 to 8 meter long blades. I've worked out 100s of winding combinations Ie wire size coil count phases & so forth and as of yet haven't struck on the just right figure. But my project only costs me a few dying brain cells for now

 IF you need proven energy production go with what Hugh has done in the past or with solar.

[Mastiffman]

If you are going to use that motor, instead of building a purpose built alternator, estimate want you will spend for the rest of the system, tower, guy wires, cement, wire, then take that money and buy a couple solar cells, you will guaranteed make far more power than with that motor, guaranteed.

 So this motor is Not a Good motor to use for generating any energy at all becasue of that Amp Rating? I will be purcahsing Solar as well. So I should probably start there. I'm simply just dabbling into this field at the moment but with hopes of someday creating some Extra power here at home and possibly gaining the ability to create some power IF ever needed.

 I do think that Solar would be better choice at this point IF I were to be looking into some detrimental needs. But it all really Just Conversation at this time.

 I was under the impression that the 99v Ameteks were powerhouses for their Size? Some have even claimed that they will put out close to 2kw if setup properly and With the right Wind Speeds.

 Today we are at around 17mph....

[Steadfast]

I do think that Solar would be better choice at this point IF I were to be looking into some detrimental needs.

YES!
SOLAR WOULD BE BETTER FOR YOUR NEEDS!

I started on my "shed's $1000 wind turbine project" 3 months ago...
I am now OVER $3500 in the hole... with no power to show for it ...YET...

Mind you, I am learning a HUGE amount about Electricity, Tower physics, and Patience.

But had I known then, what I know now...
I would have prefered "effective solar and ignorance"
over
soon to be effective wind and vast technical knowledge...
and I would have saved a ton of cash as well...

Bottom line:
If you wanna learn tons of science on multiple diciplines... go wind... and get ready spend $
If you want a quick effective remote electrical system... go SOLAR....
.
.

[Mastiffman]

I do think that Solar would be better choice at this point IF I were to be looking into some detrimental needs.

YES!
SOLAR WOULD BE BETTER FOR YOUR NEEDS!

I started on my "shed's $1000 wind turbine project" 3 months ago...
I am now OVER $3500 in the hole... with no power to show for it ...YET...

Mind you, I am learning a HUGE amount about Electricity, Tower physics, and Patience.

But had I known then, what I know now...
I would have prefered "effective solar and ignorance"
over
soon to be effective wind and vast technical knowledge...
and I would have saved a ton of cash as well...

Bottom line:
If you wanna learn tons of science on multiple diciplines... go wind... and get ready spend $
If you want a quick effective remote electrical system... go SOLAR....
.
.

 Aaaah, yes! I have been reading up on your Thread(s). Sorry to hear about the hardships along the way. I'm sort of obsession hobbiest and I miight already be obsessed with Wind! Buuuuut, I'm looking into solar as well. we recently took down a couple of large trees on the south side of .5 acre lot and the Roof is getting a good 8hrs + of full sun but the area has gotten windier in the last coulpe of years... So solar definitely Make more logical Sence.

 Can't wait to see ole Hbird up and flying to see how this situation all turns out. Hope all of that persistence pays off for you!

 I'm still not sure if anyone has provided an answer to whether or not 1.6amps that this motor is rated for will be all that it will provide when Generating power? I've seen varying result around the web...

[Bruce S]

Let me see if I can help a little.
The ratings of the Amtek as a motor are 95V 1.6Amps.
These are the ratings to run it as a motor NOT windmill.
Luckily for those who found these when you could get them for $10.00/ea they were a good starter/educational mill.
BUT as a producer mill, they will need a lot of help at a steady 12mph wind you're going to have about 13.8V BUT you're only going to have at best 1Amp , which means you'll need 50 hours steady 12mph winds to run just 1 of your filters for 1 hour. That of course does not take into account losses in charging the battery bank or voltage lines losses and such but should give you an idea of where everyone else is saying.
NOW as a learner mill ? hard to beat since its pretty much ready for you to stick a nice set of blades on it , put it up in the air and watch it turn.
Its those internal wiring that makes it good as motor and bad as a mill, the thin wires will burn up if pushed beyond their heat dissipating limits.

Hope this helps;
Bruce S

[Mastiffman]

If you are going to use that motor, instead of building a purpose built alternator, estimate want you will spend for the rest of the system, tower, guy wires, cement, wire, then take that money and buy a couple solar cells, you will guaranteed make far more power than with that motor, guaranteed.

I'm going to want panels that are UL, CSA or UN listed, Correct?

Let me see if I can help a little.
The ratings of the Amtek as a motor are 95V 1.6Amps.
These are the ratings to run it as a motor NOT windmill.
Luckily for those who found these when you could get them for $10.00/ea they were a good starter/educational mill.
BUT as a producer mill, they will need a lot of help at a steady 12mph wind you're going to have about 13.8V BUT you're only going to have at best 1Amp , which means you'll need 50 hours steady 12mph winds to run just 1 of your filters for 1 hour. That of course does not take into account losses in charging the battery bank or voltage lines losses and such but should give you an idea of where everyone else is saying.
NOW as a learner mill ? hard to beat since its pretty much ready for you to stick a nice set of blades on it , put it up in the air and watch it turn.
Its those internal wiring that makes it good as motor and bad as a mill, the thin wires will burn up if pushed beyond their heat dissipating limits.

Hope this helps;
Bruce S

 The 95w, 300rpm @ 1.6amps was the motor that I purchased, not the ametek 99v-er... the Ametek 99v Motor was only .59amps.

 Okay, that's fine. I'm happy with hands on learning! I'm just windering why so many people have used the Ametek 30v for simple setup with success? Unless they are having some type of curve with what one "Considers" success?

 Either way, this will be a fun project. I'm willing to learn as much as possible so don't imind me if I ask questions...

 So for a successful DC Motor Turned "Wind Genny", I would need something that is rated for more in the 20amp+ range from the factory or what?

[Bruce S]

Most people who've purchased those in the past got them super cheap, or were in the learning phase too. They are good just for learning and will in fact hold up for a while , if kept to their limits.
Most you'll see have either 4-blades or 3-blades between 6 and 4 foot if my bubble memory is working today  .
20AMP! O-boy! might be a good time to look into the two books from the Dans and Swind<sp?
Both are really the best way to get into these larger mill sizes.
Cheers
Bruce S

[taylorp035]

So for a successful DC Motor Turned "Wind Genny", I would need something that is rated for more in the 20amp+ range from the factory or what?

My dc treadmill motor was good for 16.9 amps and ~120 volts, but they come in all different shapes and sizes.  Anything over 10 amps would do pretty good.  The rpm/volt ratio is the key, as you want a motor that is less than 25 rpms/volt in my opinion.  Mine is 33 rpm/volt and it doesn't start producing power til ~17 mph, which I never get those types of wind.  I would think that a ~5-6 foot diameter 3 blade set up would be good for ~50 watts in a nice breeze.  My peak was 173 watts in maybe 30 mph winds with 4 ft diameter blades.  The brushes aren't too happy up past 15 amps.... 20 amps and smoke will start pouring out in about a minute.

Of course, if you want to go with a smaller blade diameter, you can go with a higher rpm/volt, but start up, friction, and cogging becomes a big issue.

[Mastiffman]

Most people who've purchased those in the past got them super cheap, or were in the learning phase too. They are good just for learning and will in fact hold up for a while , if kept to their limits.
Most you'll see have either 4-blades or 3-blades between 6 and 4 foot if my bubble memory is working today  .
20AMP! O-boy! might be a good time to look into the two books from the Dans and Swind<sp?
Both are really the best way to get into these larger mill sizes.
Cheers
Bruce S
[/quote]

lol-yeah, I see your point... So I would be better off with something producing more in the 75-100amp range or is that weak too? 

So for a successful DC Motor Turned "Wind Genny", I would need something that is rated for more in the 20amp+ range from the factory or what?

My dc treadmill motor was good for 16.9 amps and ~120 volts, but they come in all different shapes and sizes.  Anything over 10 amps would do pretty good.  The rpm/volt ratio is the key, as you want a motor that is less than 25 rpms/volt in my opinion.  Mine is 33 rpm/volt and it doesn't start producing power til ~17 mph, which I never get those types of wind.  I would think that a ~5-6 foot diameter 3 blade set up would be good for ~50 watts in a nice breeze.  My peak was 173 watts in maybe 30 mph winds with 4 ft diameter blades.  The brushes aren't too happy up past 15 amps.... 20 amps and smoke will start pouring out in about a minute.

Of course, if you want to go with a smaller blade diameter, you can go with a higher rpm/volt, but start up, friction, and cogging becomes a big issue.

So your motor wa "rated" for 16.9amps?

 I would have a 14.4v Cut-in at just under 59rpms... Which is good from my understanding... BUT, if I'm not able to produce the Amperage... then I guess it's nothing to write home about. Sooooo, let me ask this. (see, questions!) If I'm simply using my Bird to charge a Bank of Batteries in conjunction with a Solar System... would this be adequate and more Appropriate of an application?
 So lets say that my main source of charging would be the Solar panels (however that may be setup..?) and on days that it was to much overcast, which seems to go hand in hand with more wind, is this something more to focus on? Like I said, I'm looking to "try" and lower the electricity consumption of my breeding program setup.

[Steadfast]

I have an amtec that is brand new... totally unused... works fine...
It was not right for my class 1 wind area...
I have to sell it on ebay soon to get my money back...

but if ya want it, Ill sell it to you first...
PM me if you are interested.

[Mastiffman]

Nah but thanks. 

 What is the amp rating of by the way?

[Steadfast]

My Ametec Stats:
AMETEK 40VDC WIND MOTOR GENERATOR 116870-01



I'll sell it to you...
But you would be better off building your own small axial generator...
.
.

[tecker]

How much for the ametek I got one and need one for a boat.

[Steadfast]

$100.00... +shipping...

I paid $125... and was hoping to recover some of it back...
If that is too much... No big deal... I'll just sell it on ebay...

[Mastiffman]

My Ametec Stats:
AMETEK 40VDC WIND MOTOR GENERATOR 116870-01

I'll sell it to you...
But you would be better off building your own small axial generator...
.
.

 The One that I have coming int he mail (which I may sell myself and Build an Axial Genny, If not happy and I have enough "Proper" wind supply ) is Rated for High Amps that All of the Ametek Motors. And it's a 95v @ only 300 Rpms!!! I was reading last night that the Ameteks are only good upto a MAX of 24amps IF you can get it that high. And they all have Lower Amp Ratings than The one I have coming in mail. There are a couple of Indiana Motors that are Rated fro 3amps (the 48v Version). So, I'll do my testing and see what I can some up with. Still might be a good "learner" motor and something to fiddle with.

 Last night I found a used Dynetic Systems Servo Motor that is 94V but they said it was only 1amp and I'm still waiting on an Rpm Rating from the gentlmen. But I contacted Duntetics Systems sales department and they are asking close to a G-coin for it ($995) and this person is selling his for $60 from a local salvage shop. So it still be a good investment to resell it and put the proceeds towards my Energy Venture that I'm slowly preparing for! 

[tecker]

I paid $125... and was hoping to recover some of it back...
If that is too much... No big deal... I'll just sell it on ebay...

I'll go for the Ametek I sent a message for your pay pal .

[Mastiffman]

Estimated Delivery on this unit is Set for Monday, July 2nd.

 What type of Cable should I use? 10awg or lower from the Genny to the Battery Bank?

  Was thinking of some Marine Batteries. Wind is 10mph today.

[birdhouse]

i'd look for three phase servo's on ebay.  a few of us use them here for mills.  pacific scientific, allen bradley and fanuc are good brands. 

i found a fanuc on ebay for $160.  it's rated for 2000rpm, 140v and 20A.  i stuck and 8.5' prop on it and regularly see 600w and sometimes as high as 900w out of it!  it's hooked to a 24v bank.  shop by specs, but also by weight.  the motor above weighs 60+ lbs before i yanked a bunch of non wind garbage out of it.  new, that motor costs over 3k!

adam

[Mastiffman]

i'd look for three phase servo's on ebay.  a few of us use them here for mills.  pacific scientific, allen bradley and fanuc are good brands. 

i found a fanuc on ebay for $160.  it's rated for 2000rpm, 140v and 20A.  i stuck and 8.5' prop on it and regularly see 600w and sometimes as high as 900w out of it!  it's hooked to a 24v bank.  shop by specs, but also by weight.  the motor above weighs 60+ lbs before i yanked a bunch of non wind garbage out of it.  new, that motor costs over 3k!

adam

 Yeah, I've actually been looking already and will keep looking... What kind of wind speed do you have normally? So you are over 250rpms when your batteries start to charge? And you are peaking at around 644rpms at 900watts? Or am I off? Does this Servo motor produce more than the 20amps that it's rated for? If so how much?

 I don't think that I could get that kind of wind around here...  we are only class 2.

 Although this morning speeds started at 10mph and it's now around 16mph... So, like I said, it definetly getting more windy...

[birdhouse]

mastif-
other than bench testing, and getting ~240rpm to hit ~24v, i really have little idea on how many rpms or amps my turbine is putting out.  the thing just works, so ive yet to put an ammeter in.   i've just seen my ts-60 dumping over 30amps at ~28.8v.  this is happening while the stereo and inverter and some lighting is on, so in actuality, instant peaks may be above a Kw...  i really need to get a shunted doc wattson hooked up so i actually know what's going on! 

depending on brand, and i'm unsure of this, but on the three phase jobbies, i think the amp rating may be per phase...  AKA:  my 20A unit is actually a 60A unit??   

my off grid place is in a wind zone 3+.  according to a program my buddy wrote, based on gps coords, my average wind speed on a 60' tower is 12.4 mph. 

i have no anemometer either, but top of my head guess, is i start trickle charging at 10-12 mph winds.

adam

[Mastiffman]

mastif-
other than bench testing, and getting ~240rpm to hit ~24v, i really have little idea on how many rpms or amps my turbine is putting out.  the thing just works, so ive yet to put an ammeter in.   i've just seen my ts-60 dumping over 30amps at ~28.8v.  this is happening while the stereo and inverter and some lighting is on, so in actuality, instant peaks may be above a Kw...  i really need to get a shunted doc wattson hooked up so i actually know what's going on! 

depending on brand, and i'm unsure of this, but on the three phase jobbies, i think the amp rating may be per phase...  AKA:  my 20A unit is actually a 60A unit??   

my off grid place is in a wind zone 3+.  according to a program my buddy wrote, based on gps coords, my average wind speed on a 60' tower is 12.4 mph. 

i have no anemometer either, but top of my head guess, is i start trickle charging at 10-12 mph winds.

adam

 Wow, that sounds pretty impressive. Well it's been about 14mph here all day... So hopefullly I'll be able to catch some breeze!?

[Mastiffman]

Okay, so I received my motor on Saturday before going to a nephews Grad party and I quickly hooked it up to a volt meter and with a quick index/thumb turn I'm getting an open voltage of around 38-40volts on this Thing!?