Author Topic: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly  (Read 30566 times)

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MattM

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2019, 07:46:49 AM »
Very nice visuals.  Looks very sturdy in that shot with the slat layers visible.

I see two other blades in the background.  Is there a spare?

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2019, 11:42:23 AM »
Yup making 4. 
Will pick the 3 best. 
I still haven't decided yet - they are all of roughly equal quality so far.  It's 25% more work and 100% risk-reduction. 
I've made some mistakes along the way that were close to scrapping the parts, but so far recovered from each one.
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2019, 11:48:16 AM »
One of the problems I ran into was when some of the wood grain became prone to splitting while I was cutting it.
It's a product of laminating the boards cross-grained, which is great for mutual reinforcement of the structure, not so great for those spots where the grain really plunges away from the axis of the board.
The only thing for it is to have reeeeeeeeealllllly sharp blades and shallow cuts.  Slows things down a fair bit though.

Edit:  I was going to add - the bottom of that groove turned out to be just barely out of the final profile I needed.  Whew!
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2019, 11:54:36 AM »
Yesterday, I trimmed down the grips at the root.  The "block" laminates were 10" by 5.5", and now the grip ends are trimmed to 7" by 3".  Still lots of meat to bolt together, and saves 2 pounds per blade.



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clockmanFRA

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2019, 03:11:36 PM »
wwwooowww !  wwwhooo ! cccccoooorrrr !

Those blades at their roots are so sexy.

It seems such a shame to put them up in the rain.

Nice one SparWeb.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

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DamonHD

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2019, 03:31:12 PM »
Agreed!
Podcast: https://www.earth.org.uk/SECTION_podcast.html

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kitestrings

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2019, 03:41:34 PM »
Looks great Spar.

If I had one thing to do over on our last set, I would have take the trailing edge to as close to a knife's-edge as possible nearest the tips.  I'm convinced this is where any blade noise originates.

Even if they don't work as blades - and I'm sure they will - they are dually impressive sculpture.  ~ks

mmurray70

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2019, 08:16:20 PM »
Yup making 4. 
Will pick the 3 best. 
I still haven't decided yet - they are all of roughly equal quality so far.  It's 25% more work and 100% risk-reduction. 
I've made some mistakes along the way that were close to scrapping the parts, but so far recovered from each one.

Beautiful job. Good idea to make an extra. I've noticed from working in a machine shop that whenever you have a spare, you never seem to scrap a part, but if you have the exact number something will always go wrong towards the end.

Whats the total cost of materials on these blades? Do you have 3D cad file?

wbuffetjr1

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2019, 09:51:05 PM »
Wow! Talk about skills!!!

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2019, 11:31:07 PM »
Quote
whenever you have a spare, you never seem to scrap a part, but if you have the exact number something will always go wrong towards the end.

Yup.  Same lesson, learned the same way.

I have been keeping track of costs.  Since this is a "one-off" set, it's pretty steep.
One thing I decided to do before even starting was to invest in tools rather than spend extra on wood.  Meaning I ducked the cost of clear grain cedar, which would have run at least 900 dollars.  I bought regular cedar planking instead.  I had to sort carefully at the lumber yard, and after drying them still had to discard a bunch.  And go to another store for more after I cleaned the good stuff from the first place.

Note that this isn't as great a hardship as it sounds - a lot of material ends up on the floor.  The original laminates weighed almost 40 pounds each, the final parts only 10 pounds.  To deal with more defects in the cedar I had to place the laminates carefully - strategically locating knots and cracks where they would be lost in the chips anyway.  In the end, that strategy worked... almost... perfectly...  There are a few knots where I didn't expect them to end up, but none larger than a pencil, and overall I've been able to deal with every trick they threw at me.

All dollars in Canadian currency:

Wood purchase 1:  250
Wood purchase 2:  86
Power planer:  439
Heavy-duty bar clamps:  130
Adhesive: 242
Stain & Finish: 50
Electric Sander: 80
-------------------------------------------
Total So Far: 1,277

The sander was not a planned purchase - my 15-year old one quit 2 weeks ago sanding these.

This project was an occasion for my friend Richard, more interested in woodworking than me, to bring over some of his tools for me to try.  The red-handled drawknife became my favourite over my smaller one.  For starters my small one was too small, so I was going to need a bigger one anyway.  Second, his keeps a sharp edge really well, while my old drawknife was probably sharpened on a grinding wheel (not by me) because it can't keep an edge now (annealed by the heat).

My spokeshaves allowed just enough curve to get the concave shape of the front face.  I was expecting to buy some hand-carving tools but in the end I got the whole thing done with what I had, plus Richard's drawknife.

I still have a lot of sanding to do, and then the staining process begins.
I also haven't finished the hub.  I have flat plates coming from a laser cutter, and the shaft of the hub is being made on a lathe by a new machine shop that just opened near my workplace.  A simple test of their capabilities and business methods before sending some real work their way.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2019, 11:38:07 PM »
One other thing.  I did work out some geometry in CAD, but I did not stick to the plan.  The final blades look a lot like the drawing, but on measurement they are not the same.

I used this occasion to use Onshape, which is an online 3D CAD service that I'm enjoying for many projects.  I find it's much easier to use than Inventor or Solidworks, though not as rich in modeling features and still quite lacking in drawing features.  In all domains, Onshape is catching up fast, so having a project or two every year to do in Onshape helps me keep up with its capabilities.  Yes, I know I sound like I'm on their payroll.

12131-0

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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2019, 11:41:02 PM »
Quote
they are dually impressive sculpture.

Thank you everyone. I think they're pretty, too.

And if everything goes according to plan, I'll have one left over for decoration.  :)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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kitestrings

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2019, 11:00:38 AM »
I've a couple question Spar:

Why are your stations, at least on the CAD drawing, irregular (between sections A-A & H-H)?  Do those points coincide with something unique, like a particular angle?

Are you planning to fashion a spinner on the thing, and any particular thoughts on the aerodynamics of it; at/closest the hub?  There's been quite a lot of discussion on this in year's past.   I know it is generally a negligible portion with regard to overall power.  Still, you've put quite a bit of additional stock, and effort into this section of the blades - we did the same - and I'm curious your thoughts on the hub center to A-A section of the rotor.

Really nice work.

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2019, 09:25:31 PM »
Stations.  I can't explain why I put the stations where I did on the Onshape drawing.  It doesn't make much sense - it's as if I was in the process of moving the lines but didn't finish.  Or they snapped to something that I moved unintentionally... I would fixed them but...

Airfoils.  Once the Onshape model was complete and I was working on the drawing, I played around a bit more with my calculations and I wanted to make some changes (NACA 3415 -->> 6415) (also change of chord).  When I took those changes to Onshape, thinking it wouldn't be too difficult, I discovered to my chagrin that some of the modeling features had not be set up in a way that would neatly update.  In fact, like a Rube Goldberg machine with too many springs in it, adjusting even a few settings made it go sproiiiiiiinng
So I resorted to the tried-and-true AutoCAD to plot the sequence of airfoils in size and angle needed to make the templates.  It is a comment on my 10,000 hours with ACAD and 500 hours with Onshape that it took me a week to make the Onshape model, and 2 hours to make the airfoils model in ACAD. 

Spinners.  I am tempted.  I have a lot of useless chunks of cedar sitting around.  The aerodynamic value is low, IMHO.  I'm staying focused on the blades, hub, and mounting to the generator for the time being.  Once I have those steps done, the "primary" job is done.  Secondary is any adjustment to the hub and tail once I have the tower down & inspected.  The spinner would be "tertiary".

You'll be sure to see a spinner, if I add one.
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2019, 05:31:33 PM »
Tower is down for the replacement.
First, I had to cut some trees down.  They are growing everywhere here.  This shouldn't be happening: I live on the prairies.  Ironic...

The old blades are in absolutely tragic condition.  Amazing that they run even still, and don't shed bits or go flying off to the neighbour's house.
These are 10 years old, carved from cedar, stained and varnished.  The varnish was touched up several years ago (maybe 2014).  You'll see in the photos below that about the ONLY thing still intact is the protective tape on the leading edges.  Not even a corner peeled there.

The impact damage and chipped trailing edges all happened during one terrible hail storm in 2017.  They went through many hail storms before that but none did damage.  After the 2017 hailstorm I knew I had to replace them, but I was surprised to feel no change in vibrations in the tower, heard no funny noises.  There was a marked drop in power output and speed, but they would run if the wind was strong enough.  Accepting that as a "fail-safe" mode, I chose to leave them up until the new ones were ready; no hurry.

Photos to follow...
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2019, 05:33:19 PM »
12224-0





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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2019, 05:35:32 PM »
12228-0



12230-2
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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bigrockcandymountain

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2019, 09:05:45 AM »
Wow those are used up.  It's crazy they still worked and were balanced. 

What type of tape is on the leading edges? It looks like great stuff that held up well.

Bruce S

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2019, 04:10:02 PM »
That's what I like about using Cedar , it's considered a "soft" wood. It'll take a beating from hail, etc and keep going.

Looks like you got your monies worth too  :).

Cheers
Bruce S
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2019, 01:37:19 AM »
That's "prop tape", put on the leading edges of aircraft propellers.
3M tape # 8762

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/protectiveLeading.php

Golly, I just realized I might not have enough (left over from the last) to do the new blades.  Have to check that.
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kitestrings

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2019, 02:45:39 PM »
Wow.  You're gonna see a big difference with those new ones.

I'm surprised how well the edge tape has held up.


kitestrings

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2019, 08:22:23 AM »
Do you normally apply the edge tape after finishing, or are you clear-coating over the tape with any finish?  As I recall you are (linseed) oiling/preserving and not spray finishing?

topspeed

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2019, 11:17:34 AM »
Hard enough to peel the potatoes in the field

(Attachment Link)

I was sailing once at a 25 m/s storm with my friend...but at the same day elsewhere in Finland was an area where the hails were the size of baseballs and destroyed several ( thousands ? ) acres of forest.

I bet no wind mill can be designed to stand such forces....or should they ?
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2019, 12:54:42 AM »
I bet no wind mill can be designed to stand such forces....or should they ?

That begs the rhetorical question: How much more durable does it need to be? 
Nature can always find a way to throw a bigger hailstone.

That said,
When it comes to commercial WT's with million-dollar budgets and contracts to be served, the durability has to be specified, the structure has to be tested to its limits, and insurance has to cover the rest!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2019, 09:43:14 PM »
Assembling the blades can also be called a balancing act.

haha

(Sorry)

Anyway... in the photo below you can see how I discovered a way to use my laser level as a guide to get the blades aligned.
It was also useful for setting the cone angle, although I admit to making a mistake in the process.  And that, my friends, is why I made 4 blades, because I was bound to make a mistake eventually.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2019, 03:04:00 AM »
Hard enough to peel the potatoes in the field

(Attachment Link)


I bet no wind mill can be designed to stand such forces....or should they ?

I think that blades made out of wood or fibre glass and foam are too soft to resist the impact of large hail balls, especially when the rotor is running fast and the balls hit a blade with a large speed. Some of my smaller VIRYA windmills have blades made out of 7.14 % cambered stainless steel sheet and these blades may resist big hail balls because the blade works a knife and simple cuts a ball in two halves. The VIRYA-2.2S is equipped with these blades and has turned for about ten years. There must have been hail in this period but the blades still look new. But the maximum diameter of hail which we have had here is about 1 cm.

The same problem arises if airplanes fly in hail storms. The blades in front of the yet engine must also be strong enough if they come in contact with hail or birds. I think that these blades are made of a very strong metal and also have a sharp leading edge.

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2019, 11:00:15 PM »

I think that blades made out of wood or fibre glass and foam are too soft to resist the impact of large hail balls, especially when the rotor is running fast and the balls hit a blade with a large speed. Some of my smaller VIRYA windmills have blades made out of 7.14 % cambered stainless steel sheet and these blades may resist big hail balls because the blade works a knife and simple cuts a ball in two halves. The VIRYA-2.2S is equipped with these blades and has turned for about ten years. There must have been hail in this period but the blades still look new. But the maximum diameter of hail which we have had here is about 1 cm.

The same problem arises if airplanes fly in hail storms. The blades in front of the yet engine must also be strong enough if they come in contact with hail or birds. I think that these blades are made of a very strong metal and also have a sharp leading edge.

My personal observations on different material choices for wind turbine rotor blades, ranked in order of durability:

{lowest durability}
<5 years - Fiberglass shell with hollow core /1
~5 years - Fiberglass shell with foam/balsa core (hobbyist skill) /1
~5 years - Hollow plastic extrusion /1
~5 years - Wood single-board /2
<10 years - Fiberglass with foam/balsa core (professional skill) /3
<10 years - Carbon fiber with foam/balsa core (hobbyist skill) /1
<10 years - Carbon fiber solid pultrusion /1
~10 years - Wood laminated board /2/3
~10 years - Carbon fiber w/ foam/balsa core (professional skill) /4
~25 years - Wood laminated board with fiberglass wrapping and leading edge shield /5
~25 years - Carbon fiber shell w/ foam/balsa core (professional skill) /7/8
>25 years - Hollow aluminum extrusion /7
>25 years - Flat steel plate /6
>50 years - Solid aluminum /5
{highest durability}

Notes
/1  Limited by material variability; usually poor process control
/2  Limited by grade/species of wood selected
/3  Limited by resin and surface finish
/4  Typical of hobbyist aircraft propellors
/5  Typical of type-certificated aircraft propellors, which are actually limited by flight hours
/6  Typical of fan blades
/7  Typical of helicopter blades, which are actually limited by flight hours
/8  Typical of large-scale commercial wind turbines

The list is based on various sources:
- published overhaul life of common aircraft propellors and helicopter rotors
- observations of condition and operation of building air conditioning fans of varying ages
- examination of damage from fiberglass wind turbine blades post-failure
- published specifications of numerous types and sizes of WT blades for sale on e-bay
- published specifications of numerous types and sizes of WT blades used on commercial turbines
- failure reports published on Fieldlines over 15 years
- durability reports published by NREL and other testing agencies
- load tests personally conducted on a variety of carbon fiber and fiberglass aircraft parts in my workplace
- fabrication, direct observation and use of a variety of laminated and wood wind turbine blades
- examination of fiberglass parts found on homebuilt and type-certified aircraft of various ages
- etc.

The list is long because there are lots of practical choices.  This is good; you can choose materials that suit any budget or performance level you want.
I have omitted a few, such as sailcloth, knowing very little about these materials.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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mmurray70

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2019, 08:22:26 AM »
There really doesn't seem to be a perfect solution for blades. Wood is still kinda expensive, time consuming to carve, soaks up water like a sponge, and they don't last forever. Nobody seems to be making quality fiberglass blades for a good price. There are a few Chinese ones with questionable quality.

The aluminum GE-222 blades seem like they would last. Maybe not the best for performance since there is no twist or taper, but I like the fact that they are aluminum, and they use a steel rod for strength which should reduce the fatigue problems with aluminum. But they are also fairly expensive considering aluminum usually sells for under $3/lb. And there doesn't seem to be a source for aluminum airfoil sections like this in north america. Shipping from Australia would cost a fortune.

I wish somebody would find a better solution for us. Make some good blades that put out good power, last a long time and sell them for a reasonable price.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2019, 11:01:21 AM »
There is a big difference in lifetime of a blade for normal weather conditions of for extreme large hail balls. I assume that the expected lifetimes in the post of SparWeb are for normal weather conditions. However, the discussion was about big hail balls and then only very hard materials will survive.

I have made blades of massive mahogany wood covered with two layers of epoxy and two layers of aluminium paint and they last more than ten years but I have got no extreme large hail balls. The advantage of mahogany is that it rather hard and that it isn't sensible for warp if well protected.

kitestrings

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2019, 12:17:31 PM »
It was also useful for setting the cone angle, although I admit to making a mistake in the process.  And that, my friends, is why I made 4 blades, because I was bound to make a mistake eventually.

Not to pick at anything too sensitive, but anything you'd like to share?  Just trying to avoid repeating any pitfalls we can...

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2019, 12:05:20 AM »
Just trying to avoid repeating any pitfalls we can...

KS
I wish I could be more helpful.  I thought I had them all set, but something must have moved as I drilled in blade 3, or maybe I bumped something after drilling blade 2.  Probably something too boneheaded to admit to, in any event.  On the first free spin, blades 1 and 2 swept past the marker reasonably close to each other, and blade 3 was way off.  I considered what to do for a bit, then decided to just replace it with blade #4 and start again.  Now the three blades all pass through a plane that is thinner than the tip thickness, which is the only criterion I can think of for "close enough"!

Aside: I don't think I need to give the blades any actual cone angle (this isn't a helicopter). 
I just used the term "cone angle" to refer to getting the tips so that they pass through the same plane. 
Another way to think of it: if the shaft axis is perfectly vertical, a table resting on the 3 blade tips should be perfectly level.

You could argue that a cone angle can prevent the blade tips from striking the tower, but in my case the blades are very stiff, and the generator mount has a nose-up of several degrees.

AK,
It's possible that your location in Europe makes wood for these projects hard to find or expensive.  My comparison above was only meant to compare durability.  Economics are a factor in durability: How often is one willing to replace them? 

I would want to compare materials fairly, if possible.  I know my own environment much better than other conditions such as humid climates, so you may be pointing out some things I missed. 

There is something to be said for failing gracefully, IMO.  My previous wooden blades survived numerous hail storms undamaged before that one terrible storm, when it "survived" 4 centimeter hail stones.  The damage after that storm was not catastrophic, it merely degraded their performance, and it declined after that.  Of course, metals are going to survive more hailstorms than any other choice, making them the best on the list. 


MM,
You got me there.  I like the look of the Backshed blade extrusions, too.
But just to check your figures, the aluminum scrap price is always very different from the finished product price. 
10-15$US per pound would not surprise me.
If I was creating that extrusion, I'd like to add a few more things while I was at it.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2019, 12:22:35 AM »
Balancing has been a B****H.  I made 4 and ended up with 2 lighter than the other 2 by a whole pound, somehow.  Like this, after final profiling:

1  8.8 lb
2  9.1 lb
3  9.9 lb
4  9.6 lb

So I saved myself slightly more trouble by eliminating blade 3.  But not much.
I tried some selecting shaving to make blade 4 thinner but I couldn't go too far without changing the aerodynamics.
Stuck with about 1/2 pound of steel in blade 1 and a bit more in blade 2.

I'm too ashamed to post pictures of this.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2019, 12:29:37 AM »
OK
Decided to go back to the fun part of the project, and post videos from the carving process.

1:  Rough block removal with hammer and chisel  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfG0tnWjIKI
2:  Rough shaping with the drawknife  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2tDdLDb9zM
3:  Close shaving with spokeshaves, and checking with template cards  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP8NNRLW1-M

Sorry the timelapse just rushes past too quickly.  You can adjust playback speed, but I don't know how to change it after it's been uploaded already.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca