Author Topic: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly  (Read 30565 times)

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MattM

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #66 on: October 04, 2019, 08:14:33 AM »
If only there was a way to take the best blade of the set and to clone it 3-4 times, for a matching set (and optional spare).

bigrockcandymountain

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #67 on: October 04, 2019, 08:36:10 AM »
I ended up with a 5 pound weight on one blade.  Don't beat yourself up too bad.  They are beautiful blades.   

When mine is down, I'll snap a pic of my 5 pound weight.  I was also too ashamed for pictures. 

electrondady1

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #68 on: October 04, 2019, 09:23:36 AM »
maybe its just the density of the wood variations between the different pieces. I don't know the process you have gone through but if you  can measure with some calipers over multiple place to see any places thicker than others. shame should not enter into the equation at all.



MattM

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2019, 06:13:30 PM »
It could be unequal quantities of sapwood and heartwood.  If that is the problem then you can load the pieces up with oil.  They really would all get some oil, not just the lighter pieces.  Once you get them weighing pretty equal then you have to seal them permanently so they don't become out of balance again.  Probably is the easiest way to match them up.  You're only talking about a 12 ounce delta, which isn't much oil.

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2019, 09:27:30 PM »
maybe its just the density of the wood variations between the different pieces.

Yes probably something like that.  I had to get the wood in separate batches, and the wood in each batch was probably from a different source.  It didn't occur to me to mix the batches together, so I just started taking from the top of the pile...

I'm not confident that I can seal them well enough to keep them impregnated with oil for long.  Winter/summer, rain/hail, centrifugal force and end grain at the tip...  the odds are stacked against me.

I started staining them last night.  Ooh they look better already.  I can probably apply some brown rust paint to conceal the shiny bolt heads a little :-/

Another close call...  since the cold weather has come just before it was time to start staining/finishing, I brought them into the house to keep them warm.

This morning I remembered a disaster a few years ago, when I was making a piece of furniture in the garage, then brought it into the house for the glue to dry.  Except outside is was below freezing....  Next day the temperature/humidity change in the house had turned into a pretzel.

So there was a chance this could have happened to the WT blades... fortunately no trouble when I checked on them today.  It's warmer today so I took the blades back out to the garage.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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MagnetJuice

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #71 on: October 04, 2019, 10:24:10 PM »
It looks like you had 12 planks that you glued together for each blade. If you would have put those 12 planks on a scale and match the three piles of 12 before you glued them together, they would have come closer in weight after carving them.

I think that should be a lesson for all of us, if we have to carve our own blades in the future.

That is why a website like this is handy; others can learn from your mistake and avoid doing the same thing in the future.

To balance them, I would have drilled holes in different positions along the blade and packed some lead balls with glue in them, then seal the hole with a matching wood filler. It is not just a matter of having the same weight, but making sure that they are also balanced when centrifugal forces come into play.

Nevertheless, those blades are beautiful and should do their job regardless of minor differences in weight.

Thanks for sharing your success and your pain.

Ed
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #72 on: October 05, 2019, 12:44:45 AM »
Hi Ed,
Agreed; that's what I alluded to in my recent post, but didn't elaborate upon.

Lead could be more effective, and I have many pounds of it sitting around for "other purposes", but not in a form I'd choose to use in the blades, if you get my drift...  :)

I spent a lot of time working out different strategies to balance them.  It even turned into a spreadsheet - which might be helpful to others.
If I can clean it up I should post it here.

Going to stay focused on finishing the blades tomorrow, though.  First coat of hard exterior finish.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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midwoud1

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #73 on: October 05, 2019, 07:15:56 AM »
Magnet Juice , Sparweb
Reply 71 Thats exactly the way I make Rotorblades many years.
Select the planks for the blades to aprox. the same weight  and glue.
Make the blades the same weight with sheet lead.
Then the next important  step : balance the blades for centrifugal force.
The balance point  on the same place on each blade.
Slide the sheet lead to trim level , I did that on a saw blade.
Embed the lead in blade  By milling and use glue and puty.
I have  perfect running rotor blades for many years .
I see nice carved blades Sparweb made.
Regards Frans  . midwoud1

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #74 on: October 05, 2019, 04:06:26 PM »
Thank you Frans!
I am impressed by your work, too.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Mary B

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #75 on: October 06, 2019, 02:24:48 PM »
Hi Ed,
Agreed; that's what I alluded to in my recent post, but didn't elaborate upon.

Lead could be more effective, and I have many pounds of it sitting around for "other purposes", but not in a form I'd choose to use in the blades, if you get my drift...  :)

I spent a lot of time working out different strategies to balance them.  It even turned into a spreadsheet - which might be helpful to others.
If I can clean it up I should post it here.

Going to stay focused on finishing the blades tomorrow, though.  First coat of hard exterior finish.

Ahh a fellow boolit maker! Boolit comes from Cast Boolits forum LOL

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #76 on: October 09, 2019, 12:35:45 AM »
Hi Mary
Close
These boolits have already been blammed and slammed and sometimes I go clean up the mess.
It's my neighbours who like the blamming part.  I just plink and I'm not very good at that.   :-\
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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Mary B

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #77 on: October 09, 2019, 07:32:14 PM »
My best shot to date with my custom built (for accuracy) AR-15 is 550 yards on a prairie dog. I practice at 300 yards all the time... but that was with a commercial V-max 50 grain bullet. My own handloads though customized for that rifle only.

JW

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #78 on: October 09, 2019, 07:48:17 PM »
My wife has a carry permit for her Ruger 380 and she has a kind of belt thing to carry it. We have a gun case so only she has access to it. we have a secret word, that will back off. Hell I told her we have to keep the the kitchen light on 24/7. 

Bruce S

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2019, 08:57:31 AM »
I've come to like the quiet surprise of my crossbow  ;), get more squirrels that way.
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #80 on: October 12, 2019, 09:04:38 PM »
It's balanced!

12311-0

It's assembled!



It's up!

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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kitestrings

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2019, 08:20:22 AM »
Wow!  Those blades look spectacular.

It'll be interesting to see if you note an uptick in performance.  The ones that came down were pretty rough.  I can only assume a true, smooth airfoil will be an improvement.   You're ready for winter.

Congrats.

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #82 on: October 13, 2019, 10:58:00 AM »
Can't agree more.  These are also 10' diameter instead of 8'. 
Datalogger is ready, just need some wind. 
But I'm no exception to the tradition: the wind dropped as soon as it went up, and it hasn't been more than 10 KPH since then. 
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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kitestrings

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2019, 10:57:31 AM »
Murphy's Law.

Do you expect to have to make any adjustments to furling, or control, with the extra blade length; and power?

Bruce S

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2019, 02:22:16 PM »
It'll be interesting to see what the cut-in is now that there's the extra length.

NICE looking blades! How many coats of finish?

Cheers
Bruce S
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2019, 09:27:09 PM »
Today was windy (10-30 kph) so I got a lot of observations and the datalogger ran all day (still is, in fact).  Fresh and gusty, to give you an idea.

Furling continues to cycle the speed from 400 down to 300 RPM and back again.  With the winds coming today, that's all I could observe.  It remains to be seen whether furling can continue to limit the speed in all winds.  With 8-foot blades I never saw 500 RPM; not ever.  It should be possible now, but it won't be worrisome if it only lasts for a second or two in the most violent gusts.  You can be sure that I will watch it carefully the first time it is exposed to winds >60 kph!

I'm not confident with the data I have to say how much cut-in wind speed has changed, yet.  Lots of wind today but not much down at the low end.  I can draw a line through the points I have down to the bottom of the chart, but I don't know if a straight line will do, here.

Just stating the obvious... the RPM cut-in is the same - that's determined by the generator.

The blades got 1 coat of stain, and 6 coats of Minwax Diamond clear finish.

On the subject of finishes, I'd like to add that the hub was powder-coated.  I went to a local shop that does lots of big batches, so they only charged me 25 bucks.  They warned me that I couldn't pick the color - and if it was hot pink I would have to live with it.  I took a deep breath and agreed to their condition.  By the time I got to the shop the next day, I kinda had my heart set on pink...  but it turns out he was only exaggerating.  They were powder coated boring black.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #86 on: October 19, 2019, 03:37:38 PM »
Still coming down from the thrill - the results are in.

I tried really hard to get it right, I hope you agree, but I really didn't expect to hit the mark so well.  CP=50% between 15-20 kph (10-13 mph).

12337-0
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topspeed

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #87 on: October 20, 2019, 01:48:43 PM »
What is the output in watts ? At some wind speeds ?
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #88 on: October 20, 2019, 11:37:52 PM »
Hi Topspeed,

Here's a bit more info.  Hope it is interesting.

Three power curves in the chart below.  The top curve is the total power in the wind.  The middle curve is the power that's been converted into mechanical power at the shaft between the blades and the generator.  The bottom is the electrical power being output by the generator.  Look closely to the amount of "scatter" in the power measurements - there are uncertainties that stack up at every point of measurement, meaning that the data points vary a lot around the trend-lines.
12338-0

This chart is more raw data.  The different in each collection run is the state of charge of the battery.  You can see a pronounced effect of having a discharged battery (Oct 20, 24 Volts) because it lowers the cut-in speed for the generator to start charging.  This is one of the factors that introduces some variation in the other curves, but thankfully the effect is rather small.  Normal cut-in at 155 RPM drops to 145 RPM when the battery is low.

12339-1


Here is the relationship between the speed of the wind versus how fast the blades turn.  They are not directly proportional.  If it was possible to draw a straight line through all the points, then the Tip Speed Ratio would be constant.  But it's not.  The blades are lightly loaded in low wind.

12340-2


The last chart is very highly processed.  I need to collect 10 minutes of data for each point on this chart.  Since posting the first draft yesterday, I've collected a bit more data while the wind was 10-15 kph and filled in the low-speed part of the graph.  I also removed some data that wasn't making sense; basically I had to throw out 4 hours of data because it didn't look valid, on closer scrutiny.

12341-3

The behaviour above is pretty normal for a fixed-pitch HAWT wind turbine.  This is my 4th or 5th iteration of improvements of this turbine.  It really takes both trial & error AND careful analysis to get it tuned properly.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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topspeed

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #89 on: October 21, 2019, 04:29:06 AM »
Okay  SW thanks a lot !

How do you actually measure the mechanical power high Cp ?
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

bigrockcandymountain

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #90 on: October 21, 2019, 08:45:06 AM »
Congratulations,  that is wonderful efficiency.   I too woud like to see watts vs wind speed. 

Did you ever go the mppt route?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 04:53:31 PM by bigrockcandymountain »

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #91 on: October 21, 2019, 09:21:51 AM »
The Cp can only be determined by accurate measuring of the mechanical power and the wind speed. Measuring of the mechanical power requires measuring of the torque and the rotational speed but measuring of the torque is rather difficult for a real wind turbine. If you measure the undisturbed wind speed, you know the power available in the wind at the rotor plane if no rotor would be placed. If you divide the electrical power coming out of the generator by the power in the wind, you don't get the Cp but you get the product of Cp times the generator efficiency (for a direct drive generator). Only if you know the generator efficiency for all load conditions, you can determine the Cp without having measured the torque. The generator efficiency depends very much on the rotational speed and on the ratio in between the loaded and the open voltage (see measurements report KD 78). So you can't take one generator efficiency for all measuring points. So just as for Topspeed, also my question is, how have you determined the Cp? Another question is how and where have you measured the wind speed and have you used calibrated wind measuring equipment?

The fact the the Cp decreases at increasing wind speed must be the result of the safety system which turns the rotor out of the wind at high wind speeds. The generated mechanical power is reduced by about the cube of the cosine of the yaw angle delta (see KD 35 chapter 7, formula 7.10).

topspeed

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #92 on: October 21, 2019, 12:19:30 PM »
The Cp can only be determined by accurate measuring of the mechanical power and the wind speed. Measuring of the mechanical power requires measuring of the torque and the rotational speed but measuring of the torque is rather difficult for a real wind turbine. If you measure the undisturbed wind speed, you know the power available in the wind at the rotor plane if no rotor would be placed. If you divide the electrical power coming out of the generator by the power in the wind, you don't get the Cp but you get the product of Cp times the generator efficiency (for a direct drive generator). Only if you know the generator efficiency for all load conditions, you can determine the Cp without having measured the torque. The generator efficiency depends very much on the rotational speed and on the ratio in between the loaded and the open voltage (see measurements report KD 78). So you can't take one generator efficiency for all measuring points. So just as for Topspeed, also my question is, how have you determined the Cp? Another question is how and where have you measured the wind speed and have you used calibrated wind measuring equipment?

The fact the the Cp decreases at increasing wind speed must be the result of the safety system which turns the rotor out of the wind at high wind speeds. The generated mechanical power is reduced by about the cube of the cosine of the yaw angle delta (see KD 35 chapter 7, formula 7.10).

Yes that is what I tought.

https://www.vestas.com/en/products/4-mw-platform/v150-4_2_mw#!facts

I am puzzled as I just counted that Vestas V-150 actually generates ~12% of the wind energy into electricity.

So do they run at 49% efficiency  ( Cp ) and then from that only 40% turns into electricity ?

« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 03:34:08 PM by topspeed »
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #93 on: October 22, 2019, 01:13:00 AM »
Okay  SW thanks a lot !
How do you actually measure the mechanical power high Cp ?

You're welcome!

For mechanical power, there are actually more than one way to do this.  Some are technically very complex, some just require careful bench testing of the generator.
After converting the motor into a generator, I chose to test drive the generator using a lathe as the power source.  By measuring torque and speed (independently of the lathe drive speed) I gained an accurate measurement of the generator's performance.

Here's what that test looked like:



The results for that test look like this:



Input power is mechanical power driving the shaft.  Output power is the electrical current X voltage which I measured after rectifying to DC and connecting to batteries.



The input power required to drive the generator is a direct relationship to its speed and connection scheme (parallel-star in this case).  There is something you can call an "installation factor" which accounts for the difference between the short wire runs beside the lathe and the long wire runs down my tower and underground to the battery shed, but that's small and easily accounted for.

Those tests were done years ago, and they were helpful for approximate sizing of the diameter of blades I'd need.  But on the first try it led me to 8-feet (2.4m) diameter.  Later, observing how the turbine worked, and later still after I built a datalogger, I had the information I needed to prove that I could go up to 10-feet (3m) diameter.

Adriaan makes some good points about the generator efficiency being variable.  I do indeed see that in the lathe tests that I did:


No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #94 on: October 22, 2019, 01:25:43 AM »
Adriaan,
I would like to hear any more thoughts you may have about the dropping CP at wind speeds higher than 25 kph.
The first explanation that the safety (furling) system is causing it is plausible, but that should be evident in the TSR measurements.
Let me contribute my observation that the furling starts to activate between 250-300RPM, and normally prevents speeds going above 400 RPM. 
I did see a moment above 500 RPM but wasn't actually datalogging at the time.  I actually haven't logged much data in winds that activated furling.  Except for a few minutes as a storm blew up and I watched the turbine's response to it, I haven't yet exposed the new blades to wind > 50 kph.  Even then, I shut it down because it was late at night and I wasn't able to observe it.

I also should admit that the green line traced through the CP points is nothing more than the trendline that Excel can plot through any kind of data points.  In this case I can't really explain its shape.  It passes through only one valid point at 9 kph.  The collection of a dozen data points at or above CP=50% is encouraging for sure, but it takes nearly 2 hours to get that many valid points.

I've done a blade-element analysis for the new rotor but the data does not agree with the prediction (if you look at the chart I posted on 19 October).
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #95 on: October 22, 2019, 01:45:36 AM »
Congratulations,  that is wonderful efficiency.   I too woud like to see watts vs wind speed. 
Did you ever go the mppt route?

Check the first graph on the October 20 post.  The brown line is the output power vs. wind speed.  Also got the shaft power and the total wind speed on the same chart for reference.  It says some pretty clear things about the round-trip efficiency of wind turbines, doesn't it?!
At 20 kph wind I start with 800 W but the rotor can only convert 450W and the generator can push out less than 200W.  Good thing wind is free.

Good question about MPPT.  I don't know what to say... everyone else is doing it, why don't I...

Well a better answer is that to reap a benefit from MPPT, you have to have an over-rated generator so that the MPPT controller can knock down its load on the rotor.  MPPT can't increase the mechanical load on the rotor (slowing it down) it can only reduce the mechanical load with pulse modulation (allowing the rotor to speed up).  I've just over-sized the rotor (a little) relative to the generator, so MPPT won't give me very much.  And if I did it anyway, the furling would kick in more often. 

(Aside: thank you for the help you've been giving "WindbuffetJr" all this time.  Despite his frustration at times I think you guys are making progress)

My point of view on MPPT is backward from the purchasers of a turbine that is designed to respond to MPPT control.  They will get something from MPPT and they'd be disappointed without it.

However...  That doesn't mean I'll never come up with a turbine that needs MPPT... 
This genny will be perfect for it: http://www.sparweb.ca/3_Gen_MoCo/Toshi.html

If I ever get it aloft, that is...
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #96 on: October 22, 2019, 03:25:54 PM »
Adriaan,
I would like to hear any more thoughts you may have about the dropping CP at wind speeds higher than 25 kph.
The first explanation that the safety (furling) system is causing it is plausible, but that should be evident in the TSR measurements.


If the wind turbine has no safety system, it means that the rotor will be perpendicular to the wind. In this case, the maximum Cp which can be obtained if the rotor is loaded such that it runs at the optimum tip speed ratio, will slightly increase at increasing wind speed. This is caused by the increasing Reynolds numbers as increasing Reynolds numbers result in lower drag/lift ratios. However, at a certain rotational speed, the maximum torque level of the generator will be reached and this means that the generator is no longer able to load the rotor such that it turns at the optimum tip speed ratio. Then the rotor will turn at a higher tip speed ratio and the tip speed ratio will be higher as the wind speed is higher. This results in decrease of the real Cp and the reduction of the Cp is more as there is a larger distance in between the real tip speed ratio and the optimum tip speed ratio. You need to know the Cp-lamba curve of the rotor to find this reduction.

If the wind turbine has a safety system which turns the rotor out of the wind at high wind speeds, the maximum Cp is reduced because of the yaw angle delta. This effect becomes important for yaw angle larger than about 20 degrees. Realise that the power goes down with cos^3 delta but that the rotational speed goes only down with cos delta. If the safety system limits the rotational speed below the value for which the generator has reached its maximum torque level, the reduction of Cp because of the yaw angle is the main effect. However, if the rated wind speed is rather high, both effects together will result in decrease of the Cp at high wind speeds.

I have looked at the measured efficiency curves for 24 V and they look strange to me if I compare them with curves I have measured in KD 78. What I have measured is that a curve for a certain voltage and a certain way of rectification starts at the rotational speed for which the open DC voltage of the generator is equal to the open battery voltage. From this point, the efficiency curve rises very strongly and it reaches a maximum at a rotational speed which is about a factor 5/4 higher. Then it decreases, mainly because of copper losses in the generator winding but this part of the curve is no straight line but a curved line with the hollow side above. So I don't understand how you can have measured straight efficiency lines.

If you have accurate generator characteristics for the correct load and way of rectification, you can find the generated Pmech-n curve of the rotor by dividing the measured Pel-n curve of the generator by the correct generator efficiency. But if you have used a wrong efficiency curve of the generator, you will also make a mistake in the calculated Cp.

But the biggest mistake is made if the undisturbed wind speed has been measured incorrectly as the power is proportional to V^3. Correct measuring of the wind speed is very difficult in the field. You should do it at about three rotor diameters in front of the rotor at the height of the rotor axis but then you can take only the measurements for which the wind direction is about in line with the line through the wind meter and the rotor axis. Another problem is that it takes a certain time until the measured wind has reached the rotor plane. So you can take only measuring points for which the wind speed has been constant for a rather long time. Even if you have taken only measuring points for which all measuring conditions are right, you still will find a rather strong variation the the Cp value for a certain tip speed ratio.

SparWeb

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #97 on: October 22, 2019, 10:36:06 PM »
Thank you, AK.
Happily I have avoided the worst of those pitfalls you warn about.

The data presented is almost entirely outside of the furling range, so it is not playing a role.
The weather station is only 20 meters from the turbine and almost at the same height, so the wind speed data is applicable.
The wind data is sampled by the weather station about 10 times per second, and the RPM is measured 3 times per second by my datalogger.
Both wind and RPM data are averaged over 10 minute intervals.
Long time periods of averaging reduce the effect of distance between the turbine and Wx station.
The data was not collected from my turbulent direction (SW) but rather from a clean source (NNW) at my site.
The efficiency curve of the generator was not used to determine Cp.
The shaft power of the generator directly measured in bench tests was used to determine Cp.


There are a few valuable points that you've raised.
1)
The furling system allows the rotor to yaw away from the oncoming wind before the tail begins to fold.  The rotor could be significantly angled to the airflow just before furling starts.  I once checked that with a flag tied to the tail.  I could do that again.
2)
The generator efficiency plot should not be linear.  I can't explain it.  Possibly my measurements fall within too narrow a range of RPM.  In your report KD78, Figure 10, consider what the graph would look like if plotted only between 200-500 RPM.  The curve of the line would not be as obvious.  Your data is plotted from 100 to 1000 RPM.  In my defense, my data was measured by multiple instruments and each gave similar results.  The instruments borrowed from my workplace were calibrated.
3)
I will go back and use the bench-test measured output power to corroborate against the field-installed output power measured by my datalogger.  There will be installation losses to consider (longer cables) but a quick check will not be difficult.
4)
A small factor to account for the height of the anemometer (35 feet) versus the turbine height (45 feet) is appropriate.  The site has very few obstacles to the north so the roughness factor will be very close to 1.0, but you're right, it isn't 1.0
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: New Blades for Spirit of Zubbly
« Reply #98 on: October 23, 2019, 05:15:10 AM »
Thank you, AK.

The efficiency curve of the generator was not used to determine Cp.
The shaft power of the generator directly measured in bench tests was used to determine Cp.




If you have done it this way, you have not measured the torque at the windmill, so you have not measured the mechanical power directly. This means that you have used the generator efficiency to transfer the measured electrical power of the generator to get the mechanical power of the rotor. Reading the Pmech-n curve from the work bench tests for a certain electrical power at a certain rotational speed is just the same as using the generator efficiency for that rotational speed. But you must be sure that the load condition is also exactly the same as for the work bench tests.

You say that the date presented is almost entirely outside the furling range.

This can't be true. I assume that your windmill makes use of the inclined hinge main vane safety system as described in my public report KD 431. The counteracting moment of the vane is produced by the vane weight because the vane moves away from its lowest position. This vane moment increases according to a sine. Therefore there is only one wind speed for which the rotor moment is equal to the vane moment if the rotor is perpendicular to the wind. At low wind speeds, the yaw angle delta is negative (at least if there is a certain pre-angle in between the vane arm at its lowest position and the rotor axis). At a wind speed of about 5 m/s the rotor is perpendicular to the wind but this wind speed depends on the weight of the vane and on the angle of inclination of the hinge axis. At higher wind speeds the yaw angle is positive. You present your Cp-V curve for a large V range so at high wind speeds the rotor must have a rather large yaw angle resulting in a strong decrease of the Cp value.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 10:26:10 AM by Adriaan Kragten »