Author Topic: knowledge needed (Read 4973 times)

BIGBERG · « **on:** January 18, 2008, 06:00:46 PM »

I am new to the independent power group. I am studying. I have some basic questions.

If I build an altenator. Axial flux. Can I make 120v AC practically.If I would use it to operate an attic fan And didn't care about fan speed. Or even if the fan didn't turn during low winds. Couldn't I just wire the fan control directly to the altenator?

I am on off-peak/dual fuel. My local rural electric provider. Says I cannot have more than one service. Any idea how I might get around this?

Rather vague. Maybe you should post some details.
Like what do you mean by "more than one service"? Or, better yet, exactly what you intend to accomplish. We don't read minds very well on Fridays.

BIGBERG · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2008, 02:23:13 PM »

A service is when the local power company. brings electricity to your service panel.fuse box. I am on dual fuel. when the power company needs more electricty than they can provide. They shut off my heat. I would like to build a system that would supply heat during these periods.

kurt · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2008, 05:59:56 PM »

wood stove maybe?? propane heater?? depends on what resources are available to you but generating electricity then converting it to heat is not going to be cost effective or efficient as far as heating your house.

ghurd · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2008, 07:44:27 PM »

You want to run an attic fan from a windmill?

Quite easy. Use a DC fan motor, smaller than the AC fan motor. Rectify the AC output of the alternator, feed it straight to the fan.

Those 100 fin roof-top attic-fan things might do better.

What does "off-peak/dual fuel" have to do with it?

Add a 2nd fan that they have nothing to do with. Or one that uses 0 power (100 fin thing).

G-

BIGBERG · « **Reply #4 on:** January 18, 2008, 11:07:01 PM »

I should say I am using fossil fuels curently. It is my understanding. That an axial flux generator puts out an alternating current. why would I convert it and buy DC fans? My home is 100% electric. Except for portable propain heaters. I have roof vents. But these don'tmove enough air in the summer. If I build a mill I would like toload it year round. I don't need to heat or cool my home with the mill. just help slow the change of temperature. During off peak. I see no reason that with the proper knowledge. Why I couldn't wind an axial flux mill. To give me enough power to run a fan. Or supply a small storage heater. As far as cost effective. I believe if I build it myself. I will see a monitary gain in the future. And reduce my dependance on fossil fuels.

BIGBERG · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2008, 11:14:10 PM »

I understand that I can get power free ventilators. But how would I load my mill in the summer mounths? I would like to put a constant load on my machine. storage heater

in winter. And roof fans in summer.

BIGBERG · « **Reply #6 on:** January 19, 2008, 01:22:07 AM »

Help! I would like to know how to build an axial flux altenator. One that puts out 3 phase 120 ac. Size of rotors.Size type and number of magnets. size of wire and turns per coil. I know there are variables. I am trying to determine about what I would need to build. I am trying to determine if this project is feasable. Please let me determine that. I would appreciate any advice that would help me realize the scope of this project.

finnsawyer · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2008, 08:55:30 AM »

Why rectify? Well, the voltage put out by an axial alternator connected to a wind turbine will typically vary by 2 to 1. I guess you factored that in. How about the frequency, which might be as low as 12 cycles per second. An ac fan is not likely to work at that frequency. A dc fan doesn't care as long as the voltage (from a battery) is sufficient. Also, why 3 phase, when most household fans are single phase. You really need to rethink what you want to do. I suggest a lot of reading, as it's not easy to have a big impact using wind power. If you just want to experiment read the following:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/21/16237/9933

This is a radical single phase alternator design that would have three times the frequency for the same number of magnets. It might be a better match for the requirements of the fan, but beware results are not guaranteed. Don't glue anything down until you are sure it will give you the result you want.

TomW · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2008, 09:05:01 AM »

BIG;

YES, a 3 phase AC alternator in the 120 volt range is entirely feasible. But.. lots of gotchas trying to do what you seem to want.

Best advice I can give is dust off your reading glasses and start reading this forum. Particularly posts by "DanB". He [and others] have built literally dozens and documented those builds.

That is the only way to get the answer you seek.

Not many of us here will spoon feed you the information. Every spec of info you need is contained within this forum. You need to expend the effort to grub it out, however.

I know you will think this is harsh. Reality is harsh.

Once you read up a bit and can ask specific questions on specific points you will see a marked improvement in the responses and their value.

Not sure what you expected but the truth of the situation is you will need to dig into the forum and find the info. It is there, it is free, it is accurate.

Personally, I will put a report and plans together for anyone who writes the request on the back of 2 100 dollar bills and submits them to me. The requests are non refundable. Even at that rate I am working for probably $10 an hour. Not counting the prior knowledge gathering time.

Just like everything else in life, if you want others to do the work for you, you pay.

I am not trying to harangue you but this is how it is in the world. Knowledge takes effort.

Not sure what else to say but I suspect my intent will be misread regardless of the words I use.

Happy hunting. Seek and you shall find, etc.

Cheers.

TomW

jonas302 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 19, 2008, 10:57:36 AM »

start at Dans homepage otherpower.com lots of info there with out everybodys opinions should take a few weeks to digest all that then order some books from his recomended reading list

You could probly set up a mill to do lots of work after you figure it all out

BIGBERG · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2008, 02:52:01 PM »

Thanks everyone. I have been doing a lot of reading and research. Yes I have even oaught a couple of books if you wish to call them that. More like pamplets. That's not to say they weren't informative. I have learned something from every book I have read. I have read 20'wind turbine ( the website ). About 50 times. I have wind power for home and business at my feet.Right now.

But I must admit. Nothing I have read. Nor the years I have spent in the military. I was an electronic technicion. 33S for those who are familar with M.O.S.'s. But nothing has been more informative.Or enlightening. Than this discussion forum. You can be certain I will make much use of it. The help DIY's so openly give each other. It simply warms my heart. Just when I was loosing faith in my fellow man. Again a heart felt thanks to you for saving me so much research and time. And if ever again I feel the burning need to answer questions. Rest assured I will know where to come.

spinningmagnets · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2008, 12:48:37 AM »

It's my understanding that some electrical devices (like TV's?) are very sensitive about the volts and amps they are fed. However, others (such as filament light bulbs) are very tolerant of varying current.

Wind is highly variable, and very often too low to be very useful. By storing what wind you do have over 24 hours in a battery, you can then get a steady flow for a short while to perform some kind of work. As a result, there is a lot of experience here about making a wind-gen to charge a 12/24/48-volt battery pack.

Its possible to build a generator that never alternates the electron flow direction, but if you do alternate the direction of the pulses, you will get a higher output from the same size of generator. Rectifiers can convert the alternating current into DC.

I've been given the impression that DC motors are easier and cheaper to run off of variable current.

A magnet has an invisible magnetic field of a certain size (flux). You can fill that space with copper wire to form a coil, but any extra copper wire outside the flux will add length and resistance without adding any work. Since the flux size is set, you can use a few turns of thick wire (low volts/high amps) or many turns of thin wire (higher volts/lower amps) to fill the space.

I've been reading about adding an electric motor to a bicycle. Motors are "wound" for a specific voltage, amperage, and RPM. Its better to over-volt a motor than undervolt one. By that I mean if you put 48 VDC into a 36 VDC motor (industrial floor scrubber), you'll get more power and a little more heat. However if you put 48 VDC into a 90 VDC motor (free trash treadmill) the 1/2 volts will only give you 1/4 the power (I don't know why, but I've been assured that its true).

I point this out because if you build a wind-PMA for 120 VAC (It can be calculated, but there aren't any examples I know of to follow) and its barely turning, you probably wont get any useable amps of current to spin a 120 VAC fan, especially with transit losses. And if you use a low volt fan so it will work during low winds, a high wind will overheat the fan motor.

If you are certain you want a direct feed windgen-to-fan, my best guess (and I'm not experienced with windgens) would be to use a well-established 24-volt windgen design to feed a 12-volt car radiator fan adapted to your attic vent. In the winter you can switch the feed to heating water. Read the "heat" section, and search "water dump load 24-volt".

Later, you can add two 12-volt batteries in series for a 24-volt storage with a charge controller and an inverter, so you can run some lights and TV for a short while when the power is out. Best of luck, and have fun.

Aquadoc · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2008, 07:03:50 AM »

I am a total Noob so take this for what it is (untried by myself option) and I skipped some of the thread BUT if it is just the heat issue would the trickle water system work?? I am just askin. when I retire (2010) I am gonna try to get as far away from "the Grid" as I can so I am reading like crazy here.

Aquadoc

68W4VQ5 (W7,2B,Q6,B4) Since you were talking MOS's

BIGBERG · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2008, 08:30:59 AM »

Thankyou. I know of a man who pre- heats his hot water supply line.That is before the water gets to the water heater. he uses a small wind gen, that cannot supply enough watts to over power the element. And if there is no wind he is not out anything. He swears by it.

electrondady1 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2008, 08:46:40 AM »

i seem to be missing something here .

if you wish to use an electric fan to remove heat from your attic,

why not use one that is powered by a small solar panel ?

that way, when the sun is heating your attic,

it is also providing a way to disperse it.

the heat could be dumped outside or transferred to a thermal mass to be used later.

in my area, sunny days are often with out wind and windy days are often cloudy.

Aquadoc · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2008, 10:28:05 AM »

http://www.jc-solarhomes.com/MTD/mtd_solar_collector_kit.htm

This is what I was talking about. Again I am just throwing out ideas. Maybe it is an option for you and maybe not. I had heated floors in Europe and they were AWESOME!!! Albiet very $$$$$ BUT if you could make this heating system the biggest expense would be doing your floors. AGAIN I only just started to investigate this so ......

wooferhound · « **Reply #16 on:** January 20, 2008, 02:57:40 PM »

Here are 2 stories about using 12vdc fans to replace Highvolt AC fans. Great results and lower power consumption ,,,

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/10/212941/303

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/10/23942/1876

BIGBERG · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2008, 09:38:56 AM »

Ideas are knowledge. I have a floor heating system in my basement floor.Anti-freeze is piped thru the comcrete and thru a small water heater.The heater has it's own thermostat. But I am concerned right now with loading a wind turbine.

finnsawyer · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2008, 09:41:47 AM »

Is that ani-freeze bio-degradable? It should be.

BIGBERG · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2008, 09:45:56 AM »

User info. Some believe it can'tbe done.I am desining a wind turbine. It must attach to the roof. It must produce an electrical current compatable withmost household apliances.It must be quiet.Ambitious I know but fun.I am begining to undrstand how the Wright Brothers must have felt.

TomW · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2008, 10:56:49 AM »

BIG;

I am begining to undrstand how the Wright Brothers must have felt.

You might factor in the fact that there are literally millions of hours more invested in turbine building / research leading up to the comments here. The Wright Brothers were in the very beginning of avionics with maybe a few hundred hours prior research globally. Its comparing nuclear explosives to black powder. No correlation.

Every time one of these ideas generates the Wright Brothers analogy I nearly pee myself laughing.

The noise will be intolerable mounted to the roof.

The turbine itself will need electronics to do as you wish.

The wind will seldom blow when you want the power.

Just the first couple items that will torpedo your idea unless addressed.

Maybe, as a new user, you should have spent some time on research so you would be armed with the knowledge to help you avoid dead ends. It is all right here, free.

Anyway, prove us wrong, please. Its your time and resources.

Good Luck with it, really.

Cheers.

TomW

DamonHD · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2008, 11:05:22 AM »

A month in the lab can often save an hour in the library...

BIGBERG · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2008, 06:45:47 PM »

The Wrights were told the same thing! fly are you nuts. gliders had been making steady progress. The Wright Brothers invented a form of aileron. Actually they warped the wings by shifting thier weight from side to side. This made thier glider somewhat controlable. I understand copies of thier early machines are nearly impossible to fly. Thier greatest achievment was continueing to persue thier belief that the supposedly impossible was in fact possible. I thank all the great men and women before me who have made the impossible possible. They are my greatest insperation.

It can be done. I believe I have discovered some of the secrets to making it possible. I have a dream.Someday everyone will generate at least some of thier own electricty. I refuse to throw this dream away.

Volvo farmer · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2008, 09:03:03 PM »

Who are you? And what have you done with the real TomW?

Funny how the law of attraction works. The people I feel are worth spending my time on in here are often an obvious black-hole of my energy to everyone... except me!

finnsawyer · « **Reply #24 on:** January 22, 2008, 08:33:20 AM »

I'm with TomW on this one. What you want to do would probably require a 20 foot or so diameter mill with big batteries. Sure, go for it. It's your money and time. Just don't put it on the roof. No residential structure is capable of handling the stresses that would cause, let alone the noise and vibration factor.

So you found some secrets to make it possible, but won't share them here. Be careful. With that attitude you may find the channels of advice suddenly shut off. Not that I think your "secrets" are worth a damn.

Aquadoc · « **Reply #25 on:** January 22, 2008, 01:03:04 PM »

JA hehe I cued in on the Heat gets turned off thing first and replied without reading more Sorry!!

BIGBERG · « **Reply #26 on:** January 25, 2008, 09:26:57 AM »

I am sorry I offended you. I am not ready to field 5,000,000 questions about my therory. In this forum. Does anyone think outside the box? What if the stator were 4 ft. dia? Do you believe grid power should only feed your persoal power system. And all power you utilize would come from your generator. Will you give me suggestions. Or tell me everything negative about this idea? Shareing ideas goes both ways.

If I wre answering as I have received. Here would be the answers. It's too much. It can't be done. Vibration will distroy everthing. Never attach a power device to a building.ETC.ETC.ETC. Does it make you angry that I wish to persue an answer to these problems?

Here is my secret. The mind is a terrible thing to be wasting.

finnsawyer · « **Reply #27 on:** January 25, 2008, 10:21:11 AM »

Offended? I don't get offended that easily. I was just trying to warn you. I've noted that a number of the contributers here that you probably want to hear from get a little irritated when they see secrecy. Besides, have you considered that if you put your great ideas in a diary, you will have a public record that you thought of it first and stand first in line for a Nobel Prize? That ought to be worth something. Who cares about the questions. Answer them or not as you see fit.

I assume if the stator were 4 ft. in diameter the rotor would be also. So, what? A bigger rotor needs more magnets or bigger magnets. You could even use fewer magnets with the design from my diary. There are mechanical issues with the larger alternators, however. They're doable, but need quality machining.

As far as the grid or no grid issue, I don't get it. Do what you want. I need grid power for my welder and other things. I have no problem with selling power back to the grid either. That requires a large mill to get enough area facing the wind to get enough power. And yes, you could build a building to put it on out of steel. But if you hang masonry on that steel, you might have problems. Putting the mill on an existing building is worse. Come to think of it, isn't that what Jerry does? Talk to him.

One thing to keep in the back of your mind is that you will be in competition with solar.

TomW · « **Reply #28 on:** January 25, 2008, 10:29:05 AM »

BB;

I am not ready to field 5,000,000 questions about my therory. In this forum.

Ok, let me see if I understand this.

You are unwilling to answer questions on the forum regarding your "super duper" idea?

We are expected [by you] to answer questions you ask?

Then, after we express the opinions for the questions you ask you get to ridicule them?

Most of the folks who could help you here have forgotten more on this subject than you will likely ever know. Why alienate them with your "I demand an answer" attitude?

This is exactly why I personally get bent out of shape with you new guys who are pretty much ignorant of the subject yet think they are hot stuff.

Have I misinterpreted your feelings here yet?

Remember, we only know you by your words here and yours are talking trash in my mind.

Cure thyself of the bad case of cranial rectosis you have. Then come back in with some specific plans and ideas and I am sure honest responses will be forthcoming. Or continue as you are and enjoy finding the pitfalls on your own at whatever cost it incurs.

Does anyone think outside the box?

Remember, to think outside that box you really need to understand the contents of said box.

Almost every reply here has been from folks with hundreds of posts under their belts and many are doers not dreamers. There is a lot of sound advice in this thread, be glad you got it and use it wisely. Or not. Get over yourself.

Good luck with it and I hope that cranial rectosis clears up for you.

TomW

ghurd · « **Reply #29 on:** January 25, 2008, 10:51:21 AM »

Surely you must be the first person who thought of this!

Just make a windmill that runs everything directly. It will do away with the pesky battery, inverter and electric company.

Your theory won't work.

You don't have a clue.

Have you seen the fomula for calculating coils?

"I am trying to determine if this project is feasable"

Nope. Not remotely.

Maybe build a little windmill that makes 12VAC at 60Hz for a start.

Dang. Maybe just build a windmill that makes 12VDC. Directly. Without batteries.

Do you have common household device designed for 3-ph 120V 3 phase?

A single example of one would be nice. Even an uncommon example.

Maybe Hiker should mention how a very small windmill vibrated his entire chimney into collapsing, without any warning, to the ground.

The Wright brothers were working in a mostly semi-uncharted area. You are not.

Actually, to relate this to the Wright brothers, this is the same as the Wright brothers posting questions about their first ideas on a aircraft site... about 50 years from now.

You don't like the answers, so you change the rules.

This is a long way from a windmill running a attic fan.

G-

spinningmagnets · « **Reply #30 on:** January 25, 2008, 06:55:02 PM »

I'm fairly new, but I "think" I know a few things from reading here. I "think" the problem with a direct-feed 120 VAC wind-gen (no battery or inverter) is that as the wind speed accellerates and slows down, the volts and amps will vary also.

From a stand-still, as the prop begins to spin, the voltage will rise until it reaches the design voltage (yes?) and as it spins faster than that, the amps will rise.

Is this "cut-in"? I "think" higher voltage must have much higher wind speed before it begins "doing" anything.

A filament bulb will begin to glow, I've heard they can take AC or DC. As the voltage/amps vary, the bulb should get brighter/dimmer.

For a DC fan or DC water-heating dump load, the voltage/amps can vary without damaging anything. An alternating current PMA will make more power from the same size and cost of PMA. Nobody I've met has ever wanted to spend more to get less output, so alternating the PMA current it is...rectifiers convert the AC into DC.

If you find the formula in the archives, you can calculate the wire diameter and number of winds per coil to get around 120 VAC. If you build a 120 VAC PMA (actually not bad for a constant-speed Hydro/Diesel/Steam system) you can spin it at different RPM's with a drill in your garage as a test.

If you hook up 120 VAC appliances to this test rig, you will see which ones will tolerate the rise and fall, and which appliances will be damaged by the varying AC.

wooferhound · « **Reply #31 on:** January 26, 2008, 05:03:40 PM »

PLUS

as you switch more loads onto the windmill, it will slow down with each additional load

BIGBERG · « **Reply #32 on:** January 27, 2008, 01:51:17 PM »

O.K.my computer is getting old.Sometimes some of the keys stick. I'll try this again. First off. I am not sure where to begin. I supposedly am not allowed to run more tham one service to a building.Please note earlier explanation/question. If the service were on the building already. I believe I can use the grid to supplement it. I can not understand what the reason is. But a local electrician has verified this single service code for me. There are waivers for large buildings. But I would not quallify. Since the buildings I hope to generate electricity to are hog sheds I am hoping the pigs won't mind some noise. Now This is serious business. And I would not appreciate any caterwalling on the subject!

News:

Author Topic: knowledge needed (Read 4973 times)