Author Topic: Film: "Who killed the electric car?" (Read 1309 times)

kitno455 · « **Reply #33 on:** September 15, 2006, 09:57:18 AM »

nice straw man argument, take the easiest one, knock it down, and say 'the others are just as easy'. too bad you are WRONG.

people want products that work, not to 'fight the man': if i had one of these cars, where would i charge it between here and my mother's house 300 miles away? nowhere.

there is no economic reason for any gas station to install a metered electric receptical, because there are no cars to use it, and i dont have hours to wait while it charges! And there are no cars cause no american is going to buy a vehicle that they can only refuel at home!

dont confuse economic chicken-and-egg with conspiracy.

allan

whatsnext · « **Reply #34 on:** September 15, 2006, 10:13:09 AM »

Look where you see the most electric vehicles now. Golf carts and forklifts. Forklifts do no need a very large range and the weight of the batteries act as a 'free' counterwight. Golf carts have a fixed range and do not need to carry much of a load so the weight of the batteries are not important and, of course, noise is an issue. An electric UPS truck makes no sense because most of the work the truck is doing is hauling it's own fuel around.

whatsnext · « **Reply #35 on:** September 15, 2006, 10:16:49 AM »

Seele, Keep drinking the KoolAid. Electric cars won't work until someone comes up with a lighter, cheaper battery. As soon as we do we'll start seeing electrics everywhere and the oil companies won't be able to do squat about it. As a SAE member I find your suggestion that I'm in kahoots with Big Oil insulting.

John.......

kitno455 · « **Reply #36 on:** September 15, 2006, 10:29:26 AM »

"most of the work the truck is doing is hauling it's own fuel around"

and thats why i suggested series hybrid with a battery breakthru

we've been waiting for this wonder battery for so long it hurts...

allan

Seele · « **Reply #37 on:** September 15, 2006, 11:10:50 AM »

Isn't the 'drink the Kool-aid' diss played out? To compare someone who thinks electric cars are not science fiction but science fact with a member of the Jim Jones suicide cult is insulting to say the least.

Also, Big Oil and Big Auto would be foolish not to be in agreement with eachother. Every business who's product is dependent on another unrelated product have agreements together. To name one off the top of my head: Microsoft and PC makers. Why do all those computers at your local electronics store come with the Microsoft Operating System already on them? It's because Big Microsoft and Big PC have an agreement with eachother.

As for kitno455, you say electric cars will not work because you drive 300 daily. Luckily for the majority of people in the world, and for the earth itself - you are in a small minority of the population. As for myself, the 20 miles to and from work I drive is perfectly suited for an electric car, the same goes with the 10 million people i call neighbors in the chicago land area (and i imagine the rest of the world.) And as far as a recharge goes, my workplace is connected to the electric grid, and an 8 hour recharge is perfectly suited for my 8 hour work day.

There are many flimsy excuses for stopping an electric car revolution, but flimsy excuses are easily blown down by common sense.

kitno455 · « **Reply #38 on:** September 15, 2006, 11:48:43 AM »

you have obviously not read all the thread here. i did not say that i drive 300 per day, i said (split across two posts) that strange circumstances might require one to need a vehicle with greater range than current electrics.

while not common, that kind of option IS available to anyone with a POS car that can keep up with traffic. that kind of option is so ingrained with the american notion of the automobile, that, IMHO, consumers wont buy anything else.

and i dont know about you, but my work-place is not about to install any kind of metered power port and system to dock my pay based on it. but let me guess, you were talking about stealing

allan

The Crazy Noob · « **Reply #39 on:** September 15, 2006, 12:24:10 PM »

Just for the record: here in Belgium, the post delivering company is starting to switch to electric motorcycles (and 4-stroke engines as a half solution, because a 2-stroke engine produces like 313864 times more pollution)

So I think that for motorcycles and scooters (light things) the current technology (batteries, motors etc) is allready suitable.

Seele · « **Reply #40 on:** September 15, 2006, 12:24:51 PM »

The debate over electric cars often goes off into a tangent with curveballs like: "People don't want to buy an electric car." In my experience, people will buy just about anything, like bottled water! There are a million obscure reasons to condemn electric cars, like: "My boss won't let me plug an electric car into my building!" I suspect a detractor will eventually say: "I don't want an electric car because they only come in silver, I want blue."

I am all for electric cars, the only reason that would stop me from buying an electric car would be the price. That is why i support the carolla business model for electric cars where 1,000,000 are produced every year, over the previous lamborgini business model attempt at only 300 built a year. If the price of these EVs were reduced to around $10,000, I could see market penetration being huge for electric cars, especially in 2 car households. And i feel a $10,000 price target could easily be achieved by government subsidation. Washington already subsides the automotive industry as it is.

whatsnext · « **Reply #41 on:** September 15, 2006, 02:35:13 PM »

There are no $10,000 new cars today so expect a new technology to be cheaper than an old one is foolhardy. It also does not matter 'what you feel'. The market controls itself and no amount of intervention will create a new battery which we need more than a bunch of unproductive goverment workers telling me or others what to build. If the goverment was as smart as you seem to think all our problems would already be taken care of.

disaray1 · « **Reply #42 on:** September 15, 2006, 02:35:28 PM »

"Washington already subsides the automotive industry as it is."

On August 8, 2005, the President signed into law legislation called the "Energy Bill", that subsidized the American oil industries 6 BILLION DOLLARS. Meanwhile, Exxon Mobil has been smashing world record revenues per quarter, $99.03 BILLION dollars (three months folks!)was last reported. So the Fed gives the industry 6 billion taxpayer bucks to help keep the prices down for the consumer so we can afford to drive SUVs that the big three and the gov keep trying to cram down our throats, only to have gas prices skyrocket anyway, and the oil companys just rake it in with no accountability. Can anyone imagine how far battery technology could advance with $6 billion dollars?

Expecting an electric car to go three hundred miles between juice ups, I agree, is currently far fetched. But EVs can and already do go 125 miles on a charge, far exceding the distance MOST people travel per day during the work week. Why dont we just leave the task for the Japanese to figure out. They seem to be further ahead anyway. I haven't seen anything decent come out of Detroit in recent history...with the -maybe- exception of the GM EV1.

disaray1

kitno455 · « **Reply #43 on:** September 15, 2006, 03:10:07 PM »

you need to take a macroeconomics class at some point. how are they going to become common and cheap if even the folks that love them (like you) wont buy them when they are rare and expensive?!

there is no conspiracy. there is a lack of market force. a lack that you are admittedly part of...

allan

Seele · « **Reply #44 on:** September 15, 2006, 03:26:58 PM »

"The market controls itself and no amount of intervention will create..."

As I was toying with my digital camera today, and I thought to myself: "I wonder why NASA had to develop the digital camera and not the market, since no amount of government intervention can create anything???"

Saying "we can't do this," and "we can't do that," is not the can do attitude I support. Since washinton's budget this year was 2.7trillion, i think Washington has enough to throw a little around detroit (a little compared to 2.7 trillion would be like 200 billion) to get the wheels of industry rolling again. Who would complain about that, certainly not the 10,000 Ford laid off today, why let Japan take the lead in the EV revolution? Are we Americans, or Ameri-cants?

stop4stuff · « **Reply #45 on:** September 15, 2006, 04:12:05 PM »

300 miles between charge ups...

did anyone actually take a look at teslamotors?

(www.teslamotors.com)

miles between charges ups.
- 60 pmh ~4 seconds

equivalent to 135 mpg

oh... the Tesla Roadster was designed and is built in the UK by Lotus for a restricted US market... cost $80-120,000

some of you guys (& gals) really need to look outside of the box sometimes!!!

Bruce S · « **Reply #46 on:** September 15, 2006, 04:12:06 PM »

Umm Gentlemen;

I don't want it to seem like I'm taking sides as your having a nice discussion and all , but.

Portland OR already has plug-in ports for people who have electric cars and or Electric scooters / Mopeds, and they provide these for free.

Battery tech is already coming along just fine. Because of the current ( no pun intended) rise in interest in batteries and their use. "D" sized rechargeable batteries today now cost less than 1/2 what they did just last year, and they hold 10 Ahr @ 1.2Vdc. Bank these together in say 36 volts and they equal the distance of 3 SLA that weighing 4 times. Plus they are now no longer a problem if someone hits you and cracks a battery due to cool little current sensing switches that disconnect the systems from each other faster than we can think.

Prices for batteries with high Amp hours ratings which includes high discharge ratings ( which is just as important) are constanlty costing less.

The company I happen to work for , buys then by the hundreds, so I'm kinda in the "know" on this point.

There is at the time no reason an electric vechile can't bet built using today's battery technology and be affordable for the worst polutering time , which happens to be to daily morning commuters whoes round trip is a totla of 50 miles max.

Now I must say this is based on a small poll done around the St. Louis area by our own staff of biker riders and electric car owners. Others mileage my very as one poster is found of saying:--))

keep up the debate though it is thought provoking.

Bruce

disaray1 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 15, 2006, 04:36:50 PM »

Bruce, I've got a few "Tin Hats" left, if you would like one.... They're going fast though, so dont delay.

(disclaimer)Limited time offer.Limited quantities available.This offer not good with any other offers.Family members of employees not eligible.Please see box top for complete details.

The technology is available.

disaray1

kitno455 · « **Reply #48 on:** September 15, 2006, 05:38:47 PM »

alright- i assume you are talking about NiCd's. you've piqued my interest. i have to drive ~45 miles round trip per day, part highway, part stop-and-go. lets say i swallow the idea of having to have another petrol vehicle for long road trips.

how much is it going to cost me to build a comfortable, compact sedan or wagon that can seat 4 on occasion? how much of the car is going to be full of batteries? how often do i have to replace the bank? how finicky are these batteries about charge/discharge patterns? can i unplug the machine from the charger in the middle of a charge if i have to make a short emergency or lunch trip?

i love the idea of electric cars, convince me that NiCds are the magic bullet. maybe i'll build one

allan

stop4stuff · « **Reply #49 on:** September 15, 2006, 06:32:09 PM »

NiCads are old hat...

NiMh have better energy density for the weight, but have a lower amp delivery capability than NiCads

Lithium Ion is the new rechargeable

you want an eletric car with 45 miles round trip possibilities?

Why not have one with 250 mile range???

Yours (if you live in CA) for around $80k - 120k

the answers are there... if you look

kitno455 · « **Reply #50 on:** September 15, 2006, 06:44:22 PM »

great- then its just the 80-120K that i dont have

seriously, LION may revolutionize this business, but its going to take alot of tZeros and wrightspeed x1s and teslas before the price on the bank drops enough for the average joe to pay for them. i guess that's why all these companies are all marketing sports cars to rich folks

allan

domwild · « **Reply #51 on:** September 15, 2006, 11:51:52 PM »

Hi,

It was not an actor hired to play a GM PR person, it was the real thing! One could take offence at the suggestion that one is fooled here because it is screened on TV. "Some people can be fooled all the time and all people can be fooled some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time!"

At best, one may query the integrity of GM's market research team, either in-house or external, which suggested a benefit in spending one billion US$ of shareholder's money on producing an electric car, which then gets promptly shredded! After all, these "experts" construct complicated cost/benefit analyses and then suggest the go-ahead to management.

I am sure that all members of this forum, who no doubt are all critical thinkers and intelligent would have suggested selling these cars to the public rather than shredding them. I am sure there would have been enough interest by enthusiasts. GM could have sold them WITH a legally binding contract which clearly specified that GM does not carry any spares or offers any warranty, etc.

This TV show showed an interesting fact: An electric car can outrace a petrol model on the speedway! I suppose the reason for it is the availability of torque right from the start.

*

ghurd · « **Reply #52 on:** September 16, 2006, 06:30:47 AM »

I just did some reading about the EV1.

I don't buy any conspiracy at all. Big Oil or otherwise.

GM should be applauded, for advancing the technology, using real world testing, making improvements during production and applying lessons learned to later production models.

Like a waiting list of 5000 resulted in 50 leases. And that's at a retail of $34K to $44K. Imagine what they should have retailed for to break even in a normal production environment. How many could they have sold?

They built 1117 EV1s. (660 in 96/97, and 457 in 98/99) But only 800 were leased.

Each one cost GM $80,000, but without government subsidies would have cost $900,000.

Etc, etc, etc...

So- Who wants to buy stock in a company that sells stuff for half what it costs to make WITH subsidies?

How about selling a product for 4.3% of what it costs to make WITHOUT subsidies?

The drivers of these cars were unhappy to give them back?

I would be too if I bought a $20,000 car for $700.

Two neat things...

NiMH batteries were used in some EV1s, but it required air conditioning to keep them cool enough to prevent damage.

There was no actual 'Plug', charging was inductive.

Short interesting reading...

http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fastlane_Blog_2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

I was under the impression these cars were all destroyed to keep some Big Secret, but many were donated to colleges and museums. One slipping through the cracks doesn't surprise me.

G-

electrak · « **Reply #53 on:** September 16, 2006, 07:02:30 AM »

I for one drive a car I bought new for under $9000.I won't give names (ten years 100,000 mile warranty) so $10,000 cars are avalible, they are small and don't have many options so they don't sell well, so the car makers throw on all kinds of stuff and the price goes up. I live in Maine I don't need airconditoning, I have a brain I don't need an automatic, I have a 2000Lb car I don't need a 120HP engine(89 is more then enough) Options add profit. One of the big thee has one for under 10K

dinges · « **Reply #54 on:** September 16, 2006, 07:53:14 AM »

I'll up that. My car cost less than 7500$. So far has 120.000 km on it. And still one original tire. Has so far given me no problems. I used to get 55MPG, but nowadays I get 50MPG. I suspect they add stuff to the gas. I'm in Europe, BTW, but know that the same car used to be for sale in USA.

finnsawyer · « **Reply #55 on:** September 16, 2006, 08:35:10 AM »

While the weight of the battery is a factor, I don't believe it would be that important for UPS as most of the cargo they carry is rather light, seventy pounds or less, bulkiness being more of a factor. Take a look at the construction of a UPS truck the next time you see one. They are boxy and set high off of the ground. There would appear to be a considerable space below the load floor for the batteries.

elvin1949 · « **Reply #56 on:** September 16, 2006, 02:39:40 PM »

Wonder Battery

Made me stop and think.Back in the 60s,in the want

ad section of Popular Mechanic's.

Atomic energy battery, Price $1,000,000.00

What ever happened to that.

later

elvin

elvin1949 · « **Reply #57 on:** September 16, 2006, 02:42:09 PM »

Damn

Got ahead of myself.

12 volt's halflife 30,000 year's

later

elvin

JW · « **Reply #58 on:** September 16, 2006, 05:52:18 PM »

Hi Whatsnext,

I remember reading in the SAE news-letter(newspaper), about a year ago. One of the Sae presidents stating we all need young innovators. Or something along those lines.

The weight of battery banks is a serious issue. But for some applications what we have will work. Is the fuel cell the answer? Many think so. But why. Because so much has been invested in them, and people are scrambling to protect the r&d investment, or its genuinely a better technology. I dont have the answer. But I guess thats, all that's, on the table.

If im not mistaken Thomas Edison was one of the founding officers of SAE. What would he think?

You hear about people making efforts to make a rechargeable aluminum air battery. But it comes down to the same uncertainty of why metalhydride electrodes are effective as they are.

Then you hear about the definition of insanity, as doing the same thing over hundreds of times with the same result. Yet it took Thomas Edison 2000 times to make an incandesnt light bulb.

The moral of the story is, most give up too early(its just a longer road than we expect). Look at how many professors filled blackboards with calculations as to why an airplane could never ever fly. And the guys who actually solved the problem, made bicycles for gods sake. Then you hear Von Braun stating it was remarkable how one man could do so much in his field, when speaking of Goddard. I believe in 1940 the US census department took inventors off the official list of occupations.

As a smart consumer, I could have a good petrol car and an pure electric one. Atleast I could make that work economically(having both). Why do I have to have only one or the other. Or even a hybrid. If electric cars have a well established set of limits, they should be able to play in the game doing what they do best, for an affordable price. I can always jump in a gas car if I have too. Why cant several solutions be solved thru several different mechanisms. Why do all the eggs have to be in one basket. Dont get me wrong Whatsnext, you make some very valid points.

Granted there are the 'fringe' out there. But only in places like this board where all are contributing, that we all have something to say, and our are own decision makers. We decide what we are going to take seriously.

(to all)By the way, I like the(description of the) tin hat brigade as well.

And how bout that 7 of 9

JW

pepa · « **Reply #59 on:** September 16, 2006, 09:14:26 PM »

hi Bruce, i was reading the comments on this post and after i read your comment i thaught about the exchangible lp gas tank. if a good system of checking discharged returnable batteries for abuse and a easy, standard way to handle the exchange batteries (small groups with quick disconnect) a fueling system could be set up as easy as gas stations are now. charge for this service would be based on amount of charge needed by returns. drive in, exchange, drive out. something to think about. pepa

Goose · « **Reply #60 on:** September 17, 2006, 07:36:21 AM »

Who is Jenna Jamison? Sounds like a nice person.

Bruce S · « **Reply #61 on:** September 18, 2006, 09:01:40 AM »

Hello Pepa;

Sounds like a good plan. There are already quick disconnects that we currently use on the trike that are not only safe but also water-resistant. Found out while out riding and testing another battery bank, ( getting ready for the chili cook-off on the 30th, we show off the trike and make use of the battery banks for power). Had the "top" off and down came the rain.

rode in the rain with windshield wiper going full blst and smiling the whole time knowing the battert connections where safe.

The connectors are available on both sides of the big pond and fraily cheap ~2.00USD per set.

So this idea of having pull-in "charge" is a workable solution. As it's already being done for the trike.

Even the Prius is someone easy enough to change it's battery so taking it one more step .....

Cheers

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #62 on:** September 18, 2006, 09:26:01 AM »

I'll tkae that "tin Hat" and run all the way to the bank with it.

Tin is expensive around these parts ;-0

IMHO those who constantly belittle technology that is here now and do able just because they haven't done enough researching , traveling , reading. Are spending too much time around bad Karma :;---)

Where would this forum be with that type of thinking?

There are so many different ways to boot the gas engine with "todays" technology that not doing it IS the wrong way to go about it. Every thing has it's place.

Going to work 20 - 45 miles away in not a problem for electric cars, and have been available since as far back as 2002.

They only cost more if you want all the cool stuff on them. Carry 4 people have roofs the whole ball of wax so-to-speak.

Some even have some pretty cool old styling to them.

Until the plug-ins stops that Pepa was thinking about are in place, then hybrids and ICE engines will dominate ( burn home-produced ethanol myself) for the longer distances.

Cheers

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #63 on:** September 18, 2006, 09:48:15 AM »

JW;

Good quote about Thomas Edison. He also never said he failed, only that it took 700 times to get it right :-)

I'm a Zenna warrior fan myself, she can sing too.

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #64 on:** September 18, 2006, 10:10:57 AM »

Allan;

This seems to be a very good place to start. "Let's begin at the beginning until we've reached the end."

Let's design the most optimum vehicle right here. We have some of the best open minded people from around the world on this forum and we can desgin a vehicle that should be acceptable almost anywhere. Governmental laws not withstanding.

) Type of vehicle. (car or truck or combo)
)Number of passengers
)Comforts (i.e. radio, heating/cooling, bluetooth, on board NAV or computer)
)Must have's for safety (i.e. bumpers, seat belts, head lights, turn signals, wiper blades, windshiled, etc.)
)Engine size
) Speed max
)Range round trip without recharge or distroying battery bank.
)Refueling
) style. (i.e. 2-door, 4-door, hatchback, pickup bed)
) Coolness factor ( gull-wing doors, paint, interior lighting, plugins for camping.

Thoughts?

NiCds and NiMh batteries have a much higher energy per weight and use than even the deep-cycle batteries. The Cadnimum is just as bad for you as the lead in lead-acid batteries , but produced in far lesser amounts for the energy stored than lead is.

Lead is plentiful and cheap, just think how much cleaner the rivers and streams would be if they just cleaned up the fishing weights and extracts from old batteries still just laying around.

LiOn batteries have the ability to far exceed the others, but so far the technology is too young to get past the prisim styles. And as we've all read/heard, if the chargers aren't done right can be dangerous of catching fire, not bad battery , but bad charger design.

The LiOn battery in my laptop that is 3 years old still works just as good from an interupted charge as it does on a full charge.

LiOns don't yet have the cyle times like "N" do, NiCd~500 - 1000 times, this would include taking them down to 75% of a full charge NiMh ~ 500 - 800 cycles. Same for discharge.

The biggest difference safety wise is that NiMh have much less of a problem when allowed to discharge down far enough to actually reverse polarity. This can be a bad thing when trying to recharge a batt bank, see picture in my diary of pictures :-(.

Thoughts?

Bruce S

whatsnext · « **Reply #65 on:** September 18, 2006, 02:22:42 PM »

Most of you are missing the point completely. It matters not that an electric car works within some sort of limits. It only matters if the electric car is "best" under them. Right now there is no place where an electric car is best. Gas is reletively cheap and when it gets even a little more expensive we can make many more lifetimes worth out of coal which we have an almost limitless supply of. When someone developes a lighter, cheaper battery electric cars will pop out of the woodwork as if by magic because most of the design work has already been done. There is nothing inherently cheaper about electric cars so unless they actually work better no one will ever want to spend their money on one.

John...

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Author Topic: Film: "Who killed the electric car?" (Read 1309 times)