Film: "Who killed the electric car?"

[JW]

Hi John,

 Ya I saw that little bit on the hybrid auto-matic transmissions. Using the 2 induction/syncronis motors aswell. The stuff is propietary as hell. Clutch-packs and one way rollers and all. Looks like a good design for an AC drive. I can understand why you could be offended by the fringe. That 'world in motion' program sure keep's the mission on trak. I donate to it every year.

JW

[disaray1]

Oh boy. Now were advocating the use of oil and coal??? Exactly how hot do you want the Earth to get? I thought this was a board about renewables. Maybe I am missing your point, John.
 
 GM spent a billion dollars(or so they say) creating a perfectly good electric car, of which they only produced 1100 or so, put them on the streets for six years, did some improvements, and then collected them all back up (except for 40 or so) and mashed them flat. They never sold a single unit, nor would they sell them no matter what.
  The question is why did they stop the program. Some speculators say that they had "secret technology" that they didn't want to get out on the street. That's not it...GM hasn't had any revolutionary technology ever, far as I can tell, and furthermore they wouldn't have donated them to university if that was the case. Gm said that no one would buy them. Thats crap. There was a waiting list, contrary to what GM states on it's own website. GM said that battery technology would "never be good enough". Crap again. Battery technology is advancing just fine (L-ion anyone?)and saying never equates to in the box thinking or an excuse. GM said they'd be too expensive. Crap. Too expensive for who? That's making a large assumption.    If you spend a billion on design, R&D, manufacturing and tooling, and then only produce a thousand units, of course each unit would be expensive. But make a run of 50,000, and the price per comes down in a large way. The REAL point is, and what started this whole thread, why would anyone spend a billion dollars on anything, and then decide to literally crush the product and program when the results are good? Why not at least allow the cars to be sold, recoup at least some of the money and walk away, and call it a expensive learning experience.  Nope. Now GM is spending a gazillion dollars on the Hydrogen fuel cell program, again with Fed subsidies, and currently the technology just sucks, and will continue to suck for along time to come. Mercedes has been working on this tech. at least ten years longer than GM, and still they (MB) have no production car in sight, and I trust that if any group can get it right, it'll be the Germans. The costs are astronomical (the Ford Focus Hyd Fuel Cell cost about 1 million per) and the final product will be extremely expensive, much more so than EV, not to mention much more complicated and finicky, and more prone to failure than EV. Gm is sadly going backwards, again. No wonder they're losing market share..and investors...and drivers.

 Personally, I would have bought an EV1, even if it was $45K and came with no warrantee or factory support, and I don't even like GM. It would be a nice addition to the Prius already in the garage, along with my favorite ride, the 74 Honda CL360 Scrambler, set up to run on alcohol. And please, let me, the user, decide whether or not there is a place where an electric car is best.

disary1

[finnsawyer]

If you don't like oil and coal, you're really going to love methane hydrate.  That's the latest fossil fuel that they are looking into.  Getting ready for when the oil and natural gas runs out.

As far as GM's hydrogen fuel cells, they currently claim a life of 50,000 miles and expect to get it up to 150,000 soon.  No clue to the cost, though. They claim they will be manufacturing fuel cell vehicles by 2011.  So, where does all the hydrogen fuel come from?  Anybody for space based electrical generation?

As an aside, the most exciting thing I've seen lately has been the development of a pump that uses the pressure of the waste salt water to boost the pressure of the input water in a desalination process. Instead of throwing away 60% of the power used they now reclaim that 60%.  Los Angeles expects they can now run the desalination process at about the same cost as pumping water from the Colorado river.

[Bruce S]

disary1;

   I hear ya on many levels. Curious about the Honda, is that the Honda 4 cylinder? I had one years ago, was the best running cycle I've ridden. Little on the heavy side but very stable.

As a graduation present I bought a 49cc scooter for my wife, and after the "burn in" started running E85 from the pump. Now I run my own E95, using just enough petrol to make it easier to start on the cold mornings. Still pushing the 120mpg, got only 92mpg on midgrade. And with a "modified system" I can hit 40 uphill and sustain 50 on flats. The max being held at 60 downhill self impossed for fear of lossing a limb:-).

As for GM, the big wigs aren't saying the whole truth, but don't be too surprised if you see the gearing and motor technology in other GM off shoots.

Also, GM & Ford are notoriuos for doing just this to get the "Fed $$$"

For anyone wanting the most up-to-date on Hybrids and EVs take a peek over at hybridtechnologies.com they are even showing off the L-Ion PT-cruiser and EV Smart car. If they sold these then they would've had to consider them a production vehicle, just like Mopar did the SuperBird... 500 is the minimum number allowed.

Plus according the CarQuest park stores there was no momney in any of the aftermarket places to carry parts... everyone knew they would be pulled back in.

There is some truth about the levels of Coal available though, and it would turn the tide back towards the Americas , with Canada having the world largest coal/oil shale.

BUT this is nothing more than a pancea...

For those looking into Hydrogen, it turns out that a specific flower/weed (depending on where your at) is one of the best items as it self decomposses ( Water Hycynith <sp?) this being used as a Methanol generator for produing the Methanol for near pure hydrogen on the cheaper than current costs.

And an AMEN to letting us "the consumer" decide!!

Cheers

Bruce S

[disaray1]

Hi Bruce,
 No, the Honda's a two cyl four stroke, and it is a bit heavy, but is strong.

 I don't have any fear of the earth running out of coal. I have a distaste for the bi-products of burning it and what those elements do to our atmosphere.
 
  Interesting suggestion about water hyacinth...I just happen to have a gob of the stuff here in Central Florida.  Hmmmmm. Thanks!

 Take care.       Disaray1

[whatsnext]

You have that choice now! Why are you and the disary1s of the world so fixated on the GM EV-1? If you really want an electric car go build or buy one.

The auto companies want the cheapest gas possible so that they can sell more of their most profitable vehicles so to think they are conspiring with oil companies to raise fuel costs is assinine. It makes no sense and never has but because Big Oil is "evil" it's easy to make them the boogyman.

GM didn't sell the remaining EV-1s because they did not want to be liable for what happened to them after they did. They were never considered a production car and were only built because the US goverment subsidized their costs. So just because you want to hear something different doesn't mean the GM executives are not telling the truth which is that current battery technology is not quite there yet. It is also why the EV-1 was a complete waste of our tax dollars because what we needed jump starting was a better battery not an electric car.

[disaray1]

Very good points, but I don't think you can put a tin foil hat on em'. I'm gonna take a wild ass guess here......you work for GM?

 disaray1

[Bruce S]

Whatnext;

  It is possible that you've been mislead by my input. I am no where near being fixated on the EV1. I am however deep into helping others getting past the idea that EVs are still too far removed from normal day driving to be used. This as they say is poppy cock...

EV1 is the headliner here and where this thread started.

As far as buying or building one, not a problem. Currently riding a bought trike from the Netherlands. Cost $8,000USD delivered to the company dock. See diary pics.

even comes with a windshield made of lexan and a wiper blade. It with the new battery sets goes 50 miles round trip, no charging needed. Of course I can plug into the company outside 110Vac with the companies permission. Don't know who stated stealing, but boy are they way off the mark...

The trike does have pedals and can attain 50mph sustained on the flats with both motor and pedals. The newer ones being shown are even better!!!

Go to areorider.com or google it for the newest pics.

Building one> Okay still no problem. Currently procuring the items to do so.

Rarely do I put stuff on here that I haven't already had hands on or tons of reading followed by hands on. Including teaching church elders how easy it really is to make H2 without blowong some one up. This of course would still only be done as part of a load based system. H2 is to me still not easy enough to store without having a Zepplin hanging around.

When I do make a mistake, I point it out or at least don't hide from it.

If you've been mislead by the past posts then my bad, however never for a minute think that I am pointing the finger at the so called evil big oil. NOT when I have seen the interior of Texaco's plants way back in the early 80's when they were proud of what they could show off.

GM didn't sell the remaining because gas prices fell low enough to make these not worth buying. But now that gas is staying up over 2.00/gal in the US , NOW they make sense.

The EV1 had to be considered something of a production otherwise the insurance compaines would not have covered them without having a rider in the policies of them being a "test vehicle".

All auto companies want to make vehicles that people will buy. The bell weather is what "we the poeple" will buy; advertsing not withstanding.  US based companies on the surface seem to be lagging behind the Asain markets ability to re-tool to get to the consumer what they want.

That's more to the reason that people pick Asain market vehicles. Quicker re-tooling with a mind set of giving the consumer what they want to buy, NOT what the designers think the consumer wants. Some of this was even pointed out after the last announced layoffs.

It is an interesting note that most US based Automakers are indeed profitable in Europe and have vehicles far more fuel efficent that the ones offered in the US.

To me research is never a waste of money.

I no longer own GM stock, so to me other than memories of a 1974 Old Omega with a 455 and a holley double pumper on top. Which BTW got 10 miles to the gal of high-test, so long as I stayed off the pedal.

Your turn

Bruce S

[radiantboy]

I'm surprised at how much absolute resistance there is to anything new in this country!  

Hybrid technology is probably the best compromise though.  For anyone interested, here is a link to the 1980 article in Mother Earth News on their own hybrid-car project.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1980_September_October/Mother_s_Own_Hybrid_Car_

It seems that the folks at mother earth were able to build a hybrid car on a shoestring budget that got over 100 mpg, with a top speed of around 45 miles per hour.

The last paragraph of the article says it all about big business and government subsidies:

Remember, this was over a quarter of a century ago!  Even Japan was "unable" to release a commercial hybrid until around 1998.

No, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, nor even a "mere" engineer, to see that it is just plain incompetence on the part of our big businesses that prevents them from producing more efficient vechiles.

In a country that used to pride itself on its "Yankee ingenuity," that had inventors from Elly Whitney to Buckminister Fuller, it takes millions in the corporate world to produce even one hybrid.  

No, these "skeptics" and so-called "free-market-ers" that put down the electric car echo the cynicism of that old financier and "capitalist" who stated "never overestimate the taste of the American public."  What happens when this philosophy takes hold is what you would expect: the taste of the American public is forced to accept the worst products, not the best, and to compromise repeatedly, if not endlessly, in their choice of products.  There is always little "market" for a product if the government wonks and the CEO's don't see it a priori as a marketable product.  Their credo is, "If man was meant to fly, God would have given him wings."

It is like the Christian principle "Believing equals receiving."  There is no escape from the "top-down" cynicism of our rulers and captains of industry.

[whatsnext]

Great. Because you have no argument that makes me one of 'them'.

[finnsawyer]

There are genes that allow the production of hydrogen by living organisms.  Sea kelp is an example.  It is possible that such genes could be put into a bacterium to cause it and its progeny to produce hydrogen rather than say alcohol or methane.  This makes the production of hydrogen sun based, but still leaves you with the question of whether it could be done on a massive enough scale.  Still, hydrogen production rather than methane?  Why not.  Methane is a worst greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, and the planet produces a lot of it.  Global warming may also cause a major release of it from methane hydrate and other sources, such as the melting tundra.

[Bruce S]

GeoM;

  I think I saw this on Sunday Morning :-) One of the guys was out in California I think. They have this going happening now in a massive way. By massive I mean what looked like 4 100-foot long pipes maybe 18-inches in diameter with a green plant that had been "modified" to do just  that.

Will have to do some research.

Thanks for the meory jogg;-)

The thing about Methane though is that it happens naturally through decompossing and really only needs  to be fed "stuff" to get it going, and is considered zero based or not net increase of greenhouse gases as we're using what's already stored.

Where as H2 has to be extracted for use.

Still will need to find that article.

Cheers

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Radiantboy;

   Absolutley!! thanks for the reminder and link!!!

Back when all this was new I had a life members subscribtion just so I wuldn't miss any of these. I have to dig out the mags and see if I have them still readable.

I'm thinking though that it's possible that M.E.news has a typo they want $815.00 for the info now.

It's the "Yankee ingenuity" here on this forum that pervials as well.

Otherwise how far along would the home-based 'mills be without it at the likes?

Cheers

Bruce S

[finnsawyer]

The planet has obviously adjusted to the amount of methane being released naturally today.  Scientists believe, however, that a massive release in the past caused one major extinction event.  They also believe that these releases have caused the oxygen level to vary from 10 to 30 per cent as the methane reacts with the oxygen, so sudden release of all the methane locked up on the planet could have dire consequences.  And it is a more effective greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide if it builds up in the atmosphere.

[JW]

"There are genes that allow the production of hydrogen by living organisms. Sea kelp is an example. It is possible that such genes could be put into a bacterium to cause it and its progeny to produce hydrogen rather than say alcohol or methane. This makes the production of hydrogen sun based, but still leaves you with the question of whether it could be done on a massive enough scale. Still, hydrogen production rather than methane? Why not. Methane is a worst greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, and the planet produces a lot of it. Global warming may also cause a major release of it from methane hydrate and other sources, such as the melting tundra.

GeoM

"

"There are genes that allow the production of hydrogen by living organisms."

This is true Fin,

 Isnt there already an amoeba, like blue/green algae that people are making hydrogen with today.

"Methane is a worst greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, and the planet produces a lot of it"

 True. but the planet doesnt produce much free hydrogen now, what will happen when all those cyroplants start venting h2. The latest studies ive seen, suggest that when free hydrogen combines in the upper atmosphere to form water vapor, it could be ten times worse than methane. But who knows. Guess we will have to wait and see what happens. Seems that the thing(hydrogen economy) is set to replace the oil infrostructure, for the world not just the US.

Personally greenhouse global warming, for me takes a back seat to a good rippen solar flare. But that's just me. When they tell you your cell phone is dropping calls because of solar flares. Kinda make's me wonder.

I really like the idea of an electric car. But not for enviromental reasons. Just because I think its cool. Kinda like a hotrod. I do however believe in carbon neutral fuels. Its just seems to me, like the most predictable one of the lot.

JW    

[electrondady1]

there might not be sufficient interest in electric cars in "the real world",

but the idea shure generates a lot of excitement on the good old otherpower forum !!

around here ,in winter, i have to plug in the mighty astrovan just to get it to start at minus 40 .

not shure how an electric vehicle would do at temperatures like that.

but this is the 21 century, doesen't it seem kind of goofy we need computors to try and get a bit of economy from these modified steam engines (internal combustion)?

i always liked the idea of a little turbine spining the heck out of a generator.

one moving part and enough heat to defrost the windows and keep my feet warm.

an electric motor in each wheel - nice !

regenerative braking -sweet!

as far as corporations go none of them are evil. they are just blind mindless organisems designed to make money.they really can't help themselves .

if they were a human they would would be diognosed as sociopahtic.

some have become more powerfull than people ,more powerfull than governments

i think that is a mistake.

[radiantboy]

Hey Bruce S!

Thanks for the enthusiasm -- it is like a burst of light!  But it makes me feel kind of guilty too -- I haven't had a subscription to Mother Earth News in quite some time -- even though I link to that particular page about their hybrid project on my website.  It has something to do with having so many other subscriptions and too much work!

I hope you're right about the $815.00 being a typo.  That seems a bit steep.

I have to agree with you about Otherpower being a sort of center for the "Yankee ingenuity" that we spoke of.  I've had a couple of questions about wiring and electricity answered with professional accuracy here on the board.  It is indeed a "precious" resource, especially for a non-expert person like myself.

I wish my fellow citizens here in Alabama were more inclined toward this type of thing.  We could then help each other out!

About five or so years ago a friend and I drove about 3 or 4 hours from where I live in  

east/central AL to a mountainous area north of Birmingham for a solar-house tour.  There were about five houses that relied mostly on solar and other alternative power on the tour, and two that were completely free of the grid.  It was a fun and instructive tour, and the folks were incredible (both those giving the tour and those of us on it).  Unfortunately, it is too far away to be very helpful to me now.  On the positive side, with my current solar system and wood waterstove, I use only about 120 to 280 kwh a month from the grid, far less than I used before!

My system

Later!

[Bruce S]

Nice system, can't tell but do you have trackers on those?

Also , what part of 'Bama you at? I think wooferhound is from those parts too.

Got extended family in Mobile, sister-in-laws parents, her mother is full blood died-in-the-wool German and doesn't like me one bit..... something about helping makeing faces and the East Germans back in '76 and getting shot at just doesn't make her like me much. ooh well life and beer goes on .:--0

Got a reply from Mother.E.N they say they're looking into the typo, but don't think it's a misteak.

With all that sunshine you have hanging around have you looked into solar heating trophs<-sp? ?

Cheers

Bruce S

Note to editor and original poster: Sorry for getting off track.

 

[radiantboy]

Hello again, Bruce S.,

No trackers, unfortunately.  I did, however, make the solar panel mounts where one could move them manually (by moving the whole mount that is . . . good exercise!), which I do sometimes to get more "juice."  (Three of the mounts I constructed myself, the others -- built prior -- were made by a nice carpenter fellow I hired.)

I'm from the "middle east" part of Alabama, about 30 miles south of Phenix City, and 40 miles north of Eufaula.  Also, from Auburn, I am about 30 miles south.  (Now you tri-ang-u-late!)  I am six miles from a little town called Hurtsboro. It would be neat if Wooferhound was from near my area, like say -- within a hundred or so miles!

Hey, that is a great anarchist attitude you have there! I'm glad you dodged the East German bullets! My own history of anarchism isn't much to brag about, but I did protest the School of Americas in 1998 by walking into Fort Benning illegally and getting a piece of paper from an irate general informing me that I wasn't welcome back for 5 years.  I also protested the exclusion of the Libertarian party in the presidential debates of 1992. Fortunately for me I didn't have to do any dodging of bullets in either case! :-) In the latter case, however, I nearly lost my hearing in my right ear because of a Republican who had one of those air pressure horns (and who was standing near me, working for the other side)!

Germans are funny -- sometimes you can really like them -- like when -- under the socialist democrats that ruled for a while recently, they shifted a lot of state help from nuclear (and what not) to wind and solar.  But now they have the "christian" democrats in office, and things don't look so great anymore (or very christian for that matter, in my humble opionion).  Still, it could be worse, like when Hitler was around . . .

I'm Irish/Scottish myself.  Don't know if that means anything yet or not . . .

Insofar as heating with solar -- I think it is a FANTASTIC idea.  It would certainly be easier than collecting (and cutting) wood.  The fact is though, setting up such a system would be something that I would want to assign to an outsider rather than try it myself -- at least for now.  Maybe, over time, I might learn that it isn't such a pain to plumb things myself.  I don't know.

Most of my time that I spend inside my house is in my basement, where I sleep, have my computer, stereo/TV system, and where I read.  This helps as it is better insultated that the upstairs, and is spacious enough to feel at home in.

So -- Bruce S. where is your domicile?  

[Bruce S]

RB;

  Currently I hail in St.Louis. May end up closer if the wifey get the job at Mauriels in N.O. :-) I'm trying to learn how to be a house-husban:--))) Anyone get any hints?

I'm not normally a anarchist perse, My whole family back to General Wilhelm Stahl, general incharge of the Prussian Cav., have served thier country. Two boys serving now, 3rd is a store dic. Our family believes in making sure the rights of the individual are protected.

My little forray with the East Germans was just due to trying to help a young defector and his grandpa get over the 1K (kill zone) darn near got me thrown into gail, had the Army Times paper not picked it up, and the Canada's S.F.s being there at the same time the outcome could've been different. They came (S.F.s) out of the wood work grabbing everyone with 5 feet of the wire. and later I had to buy the first 3 rounds if some really great Alt style beer. Even back then when it was 3.75DM to the 1US that was costly to a lowly sp4.

Still the boy lived and we drank the scare away.

I just happen to have a nasty habit of being in the wrong places at the right time...

I do a realty check once in a while and get out those old 110 pictures and remember...:-)

Being shot at is not my idea of having fun, makes you realized how important life is and how mean others can be. I am happy the wall is down now. Terrorism has been around a lot longer than the current T.V. comentators let on to be.

Just ask an old German person about the old Red Brigade or Badder-Meinhof has it was named to us.

For trying the solar heating go to the builditsolar.com website, there's tons of easy to do stuff there. I'm also pretty sure one of the main website gents is on here as well.

Being in the "city" I am seveerly hampered by what I can and cannot put up, i.e. NO HAWT's that are anything more than the smallest one windstuff ed as shown here.

VAWT's are restricted to heights and cannot be where someone can reach up and touch the blades and must be approved by building inspectors.

I think that with that concret area you have there you could do some real testing of solar heated water...

Have fun with it...

Cheers

Bruce S

[radiantboy]

Bruce S --

I didn't really think that you actually -- you know, enjoyed or sought out being shot at by the East Germans (or anyone else) -- but I did have a good laugh at the light way you described the event so cavalierly in your first post.  It reminds me of the way the British speak so lightly about such things.

Example: My mom and aunt were touring England back in the late seventies, and got in a coversation with one of those "traditonally dressed" dudes who hang out around the various royal areas --  anyone of which could have come to life straight from a BEEFEATER Gin bottle.  Anyway, not surprisingly, it came out that he had served in WWII, and been in some of the roughest battles.  But with typical British understatement, when pressed to give gritty details, he replied that he had "just done his bit."

Anyway, I mention that to indicate my solidarity with those who desire to serve in the armed forces, although I have never wanted to myself.  It isn't that I don't believe in

defending the rights of others or myself, but I have always shied away from anything that gets too institutional or organizational.  Growing up, I overheard too many veterans laugh about the inherent contradiction in the term "military intelligence" to have felt any urge to join the US armed forces.  Likewise, there were plenty of horror stories from those who came back from Vietnam about how the war was being fought, and how absurd the whole thing was (and this was in a conservative environment from conservative soliders). Of course, hearing my uncles and others who served in WWII, one got a different impression, one more of competence and  a good purpose rather than some insane, and vain, madness . . .  

Anyhoo, I've always loved John Kay/Steppenwolf's two songs -- Renegade and The Wall, both of which deal with his -- and his mother's -- escape from East Germany when he was five years old -- and (in the second song), also with the fall of the Wall.  When they escaped, it was before the wall was built -- or at least before it was as impregnable as it became later.  In any case, what you did for the defector was incredible.  I'm glad the defector made it, and that you both had a good drink over that success.

Thanks for that link to builditsolar.com -- I'm going to check it out now.  I've always realized that the principle of solar water and space heating is really quite dirt simple -- but for some reason I have this absurd tendency to get too complicated (in my mind) before I even start something.  It sounds like the builditsolar.com site will help me along!

I know what you mean about being in the city.  Even in the country here, there is a county building inspector, and while there are many good reasons for building codes and such -- there are also just as many that militate against them.  In my case, I'm happy that the county has never been informed of my little hobby, as I'm sure there are a few minor things in my system the inspector might take pains to "improve."  In fact, I've heard some of the locals (who are straight-laced republicans for the most part, and who are not into solar, wind etc. at all) complain about our county building inspection department with great anger, disgust and loathing!

Thanks again, Bruce S.

(P. S. I was orignially going to imitate your greeting to me of "RB" (for Radiantboy) with my own contraction of your username, "BS" -- but thought better of it.  You are not a BS-er!

[JW]

electrondady1,

I really like that.

"but this is the 21 century, doesen't it seem kind of goofy we need computors to try and get a bit of economy from these modified steam engines (internal combustion)?"

In the 1900's when stevenson link motion was being fitted on railroad steamers. I bet none of the engineer's had a any inciling, that the internal combustion engine was coming. Even though, for the first time, expansion of some sort, was being achieved in the cylinders, on the engines.

 perhaps im too hard on hydrogen and fuelcells. Its not that im resistant to change. Im just convinced, that the thing will crush itself under its own weight. Considering efficiency/storage/losses of the proposed system and who knows what else.

 Traditionaly mega conglomerates gravitate towards the most lucrative niche. They dont really think about it. I think whatsnext is right though, if a better battery technology were to emerge overnight, things would accomodate the electric car.

JW

[Seele]

With all the posts in this thread, it looks like there is intrest in electric cars than anything else comming out of Detroit.  Detroit better start mass producing EV automobiles before America falls behind yet again to Japan and Korea.  Talk out of detroit is that GM is going to buy out Ford to keep the two from going bankrupt, it's time they embrace EV instead of continuing to embrace gas guzzlers that nobody wants to by, just so they conform to big oil pressure.

When cars go electric, big oil will be going bankrupt, I say = the sooner the better.

[finnsawyer]

You want to carry this to its logical conclusion, then here's the recipe.  Make local delivery vehicles battery operated, electrify the railroads, and get rid of long haul trucks.  How much oil would that save?

[cyplesma]

couldn't avoid giving my two cents on THIS subject.

big oil + big auto really does exist.

how big is the real question and what would it take to drive a wedge between them.

today's normal every day batteries won't be that wedge.

there will be lawsuits in any tech developed, just got to plow through all that paperwork, since common sense is not a requirement to graduate from college, these days. refering to people who burn themselves with hot coffee because they didn't secure their cup after they left the drivethru window. or the burglars who get to sue home owners their robbing.

tin hat I'm partially one, more like a tin beenie. laced with copper mesh.

still haven't found a way to keep the cia / atf from peering into my home with their flir/sesmic systems in their cesnas. if you have worked on enough military electronics you also would wear a tinhat. I sometimes think about putting together a jumpsuit lined with copper and grounded.

even think about what it would take to point some microwaves in the sky to knock down those planes.

I'm not what you would call a tree hugger, but I have always liked the idea of building and driving an all electric vehicle, not even for the sake of saying it's for saving money, preferably one that flies. Which brings me to the latest popular science or mechanics magazine, don't remember which one, but a couple of guys made a two seater airship that's electric, pretty cool. kinda an ultralight version of an airship. personaly this I think would work better for me, since I have an 80 mile one way trip to work. at least until I get my satellite internet up and connected. but I like most/many americans just love to be in love with ideas and being to much of a procastater to actually get something done.

The term "I can't" to me is no different then "&#%#%*", but many others in the world certainly would rather keep their current jobs then take a risk on something new. That's what makes the steel giants and railway giants of the late 1800's early 1900's (wow only a 100 years ago) big steel and big railways had their lock on american dollars, where here in the us anyway, and gates with his pc makers is the same, as again bigoil/bigauto.

if/when I win the big lotto prize I'll struggle for the legal tender the hardway, instead of the smart way (getting college degree). But the EV 1 was a dead idea with old gas guzzling engineered mental thinking, so it didn't have a chance to help the masses of sheep.

it did fit a few people which is good, but I hope they don't get screwed in the long term from a dead end vehicle like some many people get drop kicked to the curb from being in a dead end job in a dead end industry

[Bruce S]

Okay..... Let's say for the sake of arguement.... that there is big oil & Big Auto.

I'll even conceed that in the distant past there may have even been in cahoots with each other. HOWever. With the Pan-asain companies chiming in with smaller, higher mileage cars back during the 2nd oil embargo , that for these two to even think about still trying the control everything is not even close to a distant 10th on my list of possibilites. Otherwise use that knowledge of military electronics and prove it.

Now, it doesn't take even 5 mins go over the ebay and do a search on electric cars to find that ummm there at least 4 USA built cars that are for sale, not EV1 either but real honestly built and used in production and in service vehicles. Some with miles on them. Sure they are old rusted and will need some TLC to bring them back to life ( like any old big iron would need that's been sitting in the sun for a decade) but hey they really did work and really did work for what they were built for.

Lets see there even a porsche that'll go 60 miles without a recharge on 3 year old batteries that haven't even been really cared for like an ICE enigne would be.

We already have the technology to produce workable electric vehicles. Is more to the point that people have become spoiled at being able to just jump in the car and go 300+ miles and not even give it a second thought. Even I am this way too , but to just blame the problem on Big oil/ Big Auto and to say they're in it to screw all of us just doesn't hold water anymore without hard facts.

We can control this much the same way as people did when they started demanding SUVs , go and say "what no electrics!!" no thanks and leave , then have 1/2 the US do this , and see how quickly they start showing up.

I'd bet a months pay...

and for what it worth, may expecience with military electroincs dates back to when the M1 was still the XM1 and everyone was first cheering that Chrysler got the winning bid then complaining because they won.

Your turn

Bruce S

 

[ghurd]

You mean like...

'Me & Bruce' are making money by selling something... say cars and oil.

But 'He' invented half of the 'Me&Bruce' setup, only better.

Then 'Him" invented the other half of 'Me&Bruce' setup, only better.

'He & Him' Inc. now have something better, so 'Me & Bruce' are worried?

So should I begin making better MPG cars?  Like the Vega or Chevette?

Or should he begin making solar panels?  Like Shell or BP?

Money makes people and investors switch sides. Quick.

If something "better" was truly available and profitable, it would be in most peoples driveways.

Like a Toyota, Honda, etc. is now.  There are 3 in my driveway, all US made (unlike a Dodge, or maybe a Ranger, etc).

My '76 VW Rabbit got near 70MPG highway.

Did 'The Big 3' and 'Big Oil' get together and decide Toyota should take over #3?

Why? Because BOTH will make less money?

ROFL!!!  The Chevy Aveo gets 28MPG highway in independent testing, but my '96 loaded gold package limited edition Toyota Camry gets 35?

I could almost carry an Aveo instead of a spare tire.

Jeeze, my truck gets 28MPG highway. And it's full of 800 pounds of crap!

US Economy?  How is sending more money overseas for for oil to people trying to blow us up good?  Might be better just putting the Big2 , sorry, Big3... people on welfare.

At least the US$ would stay here, right?

If a viable mass market solution was available, Toyota or Honda or 'Me&Bruce' couldn't come up with US$10,000,000,000 to buy it?

Someone sure would. And one would be in the neighbors driveway!

OK. I'm done.

And if anyone comes up with a conspiracy regarding LED and electric producers, please let me know.

G-

[dinges]

Ghurd,

Didn't I tell you last time that taking only HALF a pill is false economy? Get back to full dose, please.

When you do, I'll inform you of the LED conspiracy.

Remember:

'just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you'...

[dinges]

Ghurd,

Didn't I tell you last time that taking only HALF a pill is false economy? Get back to full dose, please.

When you do, I'll inform you of the LED conspiracy.

Remember:

'just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you'...

[ghurd]

Don't make me come all the way over there just to kick your Orange, ice skating, below sea level, not 3 clicking, ass...

Sorry (No. Not really not sorry), but what kind of MPG does your car get?

Does it use batteries, secret or otherwise? No?

Was it mass produced? Yes?

Some 'secret techonology'? No?

Profitable in the US where we are bitching and moaning?  Not yet.

If it was profitable, 'Me&Bruce' would be making and selling them.  Very few people put their money where their mouth is.

When it comes down to future $, now is better than money later.

I never did find that other half a pill...

[dinges]

Q: what kind of MPG does your car get?

A: It used to get 53MPG, nowadays it gets 50MPG. A plain, off-the-shelf car. Made in Korea. Lower MPG is due to additives in the fuel, I suspect.

It uses a battery. 12V 50Ah.

Yes, it was mass-produced.

Some secret technology? I don't know. Probably because it's secret...

As long as you don't your other half pill, I don't want to take the risk to tell you about the LED conspiracy. I wouldn't want to be held responsible for the damage to your mental health.

click-click-click.

I'm over it now. You can tease me as much as you like with it.

[JW]

Pepa,

wow this post may yet reach 100 comments. By the way I hate the hiccup's...

JW

[Bruce S]

hope the RB was okay.

It also goes well as R&B , not much you can do with BS though.:--) and my middle initial is "W" so you know how that came across back when Batman came out on tele..

I would've understood though :;---)

 Back in the day, I didn't learn to type so, I cut corners to speed things up.

Spent most of my time learning the fix bikes, cars and stuff made me popular with the big kids:--)

Yep, the speaking lightly of things comes from the traveling I got to do on everyone's tax money. A person can learn a lot being in different countries where they really don't care to speak American.

Friends in our Brussels office take weeks off at a time just backpacking in different places. Would be cool to take a month off just to travel around the globe-treking and learning ...

Picked up some of those HF panels... nice units have intrests from neighbours and already the city drove by to ask about them...

Keep up the learning...I am

Now to find the link to order the tracking systems. Might as well piss off the city good and plenty:--)

PS did I make the 100th