Fieldlines.com: The Otherpower discussion board
Homebrewed Electricity => Wind => Topic started by: Steadfast on May 30, 2012, 10:33:28 PM
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Thanks to the generosity of Chris Olson for his Gift of an Axial Generator and for David Moller at "royal wind and solar's†gift of 3 new wooden blades, I will start building my first 7ft, scaled down HomeBrew bird... and I will post my progress as I go...
This Heavy Bird (HBird) is sponsored and being constructed to "prove a point" raised by the folks here, that the Axial Generator is superior to all Delco PMA light wind turbine designs, even in a class 1 wind region of the Raleigh NC. area.
There has been MUCH consternation and debate raging about my other light wind (LBird) turbine build which has a custom built and innovated Experimental Hurricane PMA as its heartbeat. Tony who owns the company read some of the inflammatory debate aimed at his PMA design, got mad, and decided to bust out and build me a whole new experimental PMA he had been designing on paper for a few years. He has been building it and testing it for over 2.5 months now and I am due to receive it in the mail this week. He did it "just to stick it to those Guys on Otherpower."
Here is the link to the LBird's build:
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146527.0.html (http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146527.0.html)
the topic is 24 pages long and to date has over 26 thousand hits!
The topic is also an amazing teaching tool for anyone just starting out "wanting to build me a turbine".
I know this because when I started that string I knew NOTHING about how to do this.
It is literally my learning curve as it happened.
I am neutral in this fight and will record every performance detail of both turbines for one month each.
The winner will get the exalted status of remaining a top my tower as my main turbine...
And, of course... BRAGIN RIGHTS....
May the best turbine win!
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AND here is where the HBird's story begins!
well well well....looky what I got in the mail....
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Wood blades made courtesy of David Moller of Royal Wind and Solar
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Hey! Careful with those! Don't knock the paint off, that is one thing you need to be sure of with wood blades, no nicks in the paint for water to get in.
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I plan to paint them bronze with red tips useing engine enamel... and automotive clear coat... nothing but the best....
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Fabs,
I plan to use the same color scheme as the "LBird" blades seen here:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F535295_375560769131474_100000326622548_1235111_623460584_n.jpg&hash=53b9a49585f10276b5c080aac17b846c73a1d574)
Unless you guys want to post some photos of a cooler color schemes I should consider???
hint hint... ;)
Soooo, If you guys wanna play "Paint Steadfast's HBird" I am still open to color shceme ideas...
(Although, the wife will have to agree with you in the end) :-*
fortunatly she is not a "girly girl" so you can forget any pink ideas right now... ;)
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The generator I made for you was an old unit that was for a small 24 volt turbine and I opened up the airgap on it to drop the voltage for 12 volt and get the rpm up for the 7 foot GOE222 blades.
If I would've built it from the ground up for this application I would've built it different. But it'll work, even on your poor wind site. I just hope your tower can take it.
You can fly car alternators with barn fan blades on a 2" pipe because they don't make any power, so they don't make any significant thrust. Turbines that create real power do it by extracting kinetic energy from the wind, and that creates thrust.
I'll guarantee you this - the first time you get wind gusting over 20 mph with all that turbulence from being close to the ground, and that 7 foot turbine gets wrapped up to 600 rpm, it will shake your tower, and the shed it's attached to, right to the foundation.
You're going to fly the toy one first and learn the basics. When you put the real one up you'd better shut up, sit down and hang on, because it ain't gonna' be no hayride when the wind blows.
--
Chris
Chris and I spoke about this problem and we believe this idea may just work:
This is my idea for a Reinforcement Sleeve to protect mast against failure above cable ring due to horizontal turbine trust. It is a series of angle Iron to be welded directly to the mast.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F543752_423013587719525_100000326622548_1350951_768464229_n.jpg&hash=b643144b1ec768fb14b9fc5e93104fa41ec201c2)
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I just spoke to Tony at Hurricane,
He called to give me a heads up
that he will have my PMA delivered by Next Saturday…
even if he has to reward me for my patience by sending me a modified duel PMA as an upgrade…
I told him to send me whatever he most wants the world to see through my video reports…
So... I will be working on the Chris/David “HBird†project this Saturday instead…
Photos and video will soon be posted...
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Hi
How do you intend to paint the wood blades? There is a chance of upsetting the balance, if your going to spray them it gives you a better chance. I found this out when I first had my turbine, the fibre glass blades had an absolutely crap finish, a real risk of fibre glass splinters I had to sand them smooth then spray them, I used 2 pack acrylic car paint, the one blade was still rough so it had another sanding and more paint. It was just enough to make the thing shake on the mast, my mast is only 30ft three of the sections that came with the turbine and a length of scafolding pipe at the bottom. I sorted it with another couple of coats of paint on the other two blades. Now the mast vibrates when under load but not shaking the top of the mast.
As for reinforcing the mast could you not just make another mast from larger dia and thicker section tube. ~I am not convinced all the welding on the mast you have could cause stress cracking or distortion as it cools down. I know the aluminium I used to weld on the boats could go all shapes.
The mast you photographed about a month ago looked like a lamp post we have on the streets round here, they are about 35ft with the bit they bury.
Brian.
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The generator I made for you was an old unit that was for a small 24 volt turbine and I opened up the airgap on it to drop the voltage for 12 volt and get the rpm up for the 7 foot GOE222 blades.
If I would've built it from the ground up for this application I would've built it different. But it'll work, even on your poor wind site. I just hope your tower can take it.
You can fly car alternators with barn fan blades on a 2" pipe because they don't make any power, so they don't make any significant thrust. Turbines that create real power do it by extracting kinetic energy from the wind, and that creates thrust.
I'll guarantee you this - the first time you get wind gusting over 20 mph with all that turbulence from being close to the ground, and that 7 foot turbine gets wrapped up to 600 rpm, it will shake your tower, and the shed it's attached to, right to the foundation.
You're going to fly the toy one first and learn the basics. When you put the real one up you'd better shut up, sit down and hang on, because it ain't gonna' be no hayride when the wind blows.
--
Chris
Chris and I spoke about this problem and we believe this idea may just work:
This is my idea for a Reinforcement Sleeve to protect mast against failure above cable ring due to horizontal turbine trust. It is a series of angle Iron to be welded directly to the mast.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F543752_423013587719525_100000326622548_1350951_768464229_n.jpg&hash=b643144b1ec768fb14b9fc5e93104fa41ec201c2)
What will happen with that design is the guy wires will act as fulcrums and the tower tube will bow out below the guy wires, it will also be extremely top heavy when erecting the tower and may cause you grief at that point too.
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Extend the angle down to the next guy anchor and you'll be fine, personally I would never mount any turbine to a building, both of those are gonna shake that shed something fierce, especially with the turbulance you got there, that noise get old real quick, I tried some three foot all aluminum blades on the roof of my 60x80 pole barn, it was a constant vibrating moan.
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three sets of guys is probaly your best bet at stiffening that limber pole
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Fabs,
I plan to use the same color scheme as the "LBird" blades seen here:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F535295_375560769131474_100000326622548_1235111_623460584_n.jpg&hash=53b9a49585f10276b5c080aac17b846c73a1d574)
Unless you guys want to post some photos of a cooler color schemes I should consider???
hint hint... ;)
Soooo, If you guys wanna play "Paint Steadfast's HBird" I am still open to color shceme ideas...
(Although, the wife will have to agree with you in the end) :-*
fortunatly she is not a "girly girl" so you can forget any pink ideas right now... ;)
.
.
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I'd paint them ugly sons of bitches some stealth color so people couldn't see em.
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steadfast-
can you now see a difference between an airfoil, and a drag based blade? those GOE 222's or whatever they are, have a pretty awesome airfoil... compared to the falcons.
i'll second chris with a 6-7' blade set of those blades from dave, coupled with then gen from chris WILL topple your tower.
the angle iron idea will help with a bent tower stub, but i'd still be weary about the rest of the tower. any chance you could get some 20' sticks of the same angle iron, and run it full 20' from the top down? stiffen up the whole rig??
you have a very unusual tower rig, and i wouldn't be afraid of adding more steel to it! :D
adam
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I'm weary of the tower.
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If you have a balance problem add a white dot in the center of the red tip weights could ba added at that piont if needed. I would like to have seen wide striping on the end then a narrower one next and get smaller as you went. It would look like a funnel. I've done that to several things. I have even barber poled a drum on a hot asphalt plant.
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Steadfast.
Forget the angle iron.
I had made a reinforcement with 8 mm round rebar.
Working good for years.
Lightweight and strong.
- Frans -
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This is the work done today...
and yes...
There was A LOT of it done.
lets start with a welding "Action Shot"...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/598652_423800637640820_477049668_n.jpg)
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I discovered some worrisome cracks this morning in the stater...Should I be concerned????
I was thinking of caking on some epoxy with a strip of steel over the entire surface of the crack...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F552804_423796977641186_1664417421_n.jpg&hash=08afb406ff8463e050d2a338ce56e5a6bf739244)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F217989_423581610996056_884000879_n.jpg&hash=8098d562fb97340171a47758735fb4e0309cdf0a)
and now the photos of the incredible progress we made today.
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The new bracket which will hold the axial generator pitched at a 8% angle upward.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F547544_423799137640970_1465584236_n.jpg&hash=7432b7ed675237a18dc3adfc20542ffcf23071b8)
8% angle displayed with the Chis' Axial Generator installed.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F532723_423799524307598_1178714020_n.jpg&hash=c2f27943536093a9252096000ee724daebcc1690)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F380269_423799790974238_987108392_n.jpg&hash=b5ca2d14a7526b412230ee467cf177853628732b)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F532734_423799984307552_468640185_n.jpg&hash=7ed33dad1da0d2edf9c5d8350d8386178e8d6c19)
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Tail installed: this ia a "homebrew" by the book designed for a 7ft turbine.
you can see the tail vane as it glue drys on the dolly in the back ground.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F600986_423800237640860_100000326622548_1352900_951720630_n.jpg&hash=0ffae604c8c1b5c746d1011d8f1fda871dfa857a)
Tail assembly in full furrel position.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F392442_423800520974165_800387384_n.jpg&hash=6228e4717464f3d51b534b7c803e10ba8b9e2fe9)
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Steadfast.
Forget the angle iron.
I had made a reinforcement with 8 mm round rebar.
Working good for years.
Lightweight and strong.
- Frans -
My father in Law and I are seriously thinking about modifying your design.
Can you upload some photos of it?
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Your FIL does a relatively fair job with a buz box, what rod is he using?
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I am not sure...
And, we just bought a 20 pound box of the rods today too... :-[
Yes... He is quite amazing!
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Hi
bonding bits of steel to the a stator is not the best way to do it... A bit of fibreglass tape would be far better.
Brian.
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I discovered some worrisome cracks this morning in the stater...Should I be concerned????
I was thinking of caking on some epoxy with a strip of steel over the entire surface of the crack...
I was thinking about unbolting it.
Caking on some epoxy over the cracked area. On both sides.
Bonding a strip of steel, with a bolt hole, to the glue. On both sides.
re bolting it all togeather again.
Are you suggesting using fiberglass tape in place of the epoxy?
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Mostly he is suggesting you don't want to go drilling holes in the stator because there are coils in there and you don't want to drill into a coil.
Those cracks would likely not be a problem because there is not lot of stress or torque on the stator, if you want to do something just get some heavy fiberglass cloth and some West System epoxy from West Marine mix up the epoxy and paint it on the stator on both sides, put the cloth in the epoxy and work it with a plastic bondo type trowell until all the cloth is wetted and you can hardley see it any more then apply some more epoxy and smooth it all out.
But also bear in mind Chris's stators are full of fiberglass cloth and fibers anyway, it aint like that chunk is gonna just break off.
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But also bear in mind Chris's stators are full of fiberglass cloth and fibers anyway, it aint like that chunk is gonna just break off.
SHAAAWHOOO...
That is what I was most worried about... ;D
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Today's work...
Furreling stop bar.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F533297_424336847587199_100000326622548_1354446_978028471_n.jpg&hash=3c05e67a572c9bb02f09474a335473e9ba89d062)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F398776_424337494253801_100000326622548_1354447_1434675761_n.jpg&hash=cdcd3f496b05d2b47e439104075fd1464ffc8133)
Blade Swank: That's right... they are pinstriped
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F541993_424337960920421_100000326622548_1354449_1036184048_n.jpg&hash=0b8f09107c9d53317296a7e20b4c86e87f49df0c)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F181367_424340807586803_2121975785_n.jpg&hash=1db8b8a0378d8ab3ae888e6bdea3af87847e4a58)
Patterning out the tail vane bracket...
Pre-spot weld: The white stuff is kaowool ... 3000degree proof stuff...
(to keep the pretty painted wood from burning)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F526744_424340674253483_1425657847_n.jpg&hash=e185a60fd719c28fb3847d22658a73a76736fd17)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F542020_424378174249733_2138695728_n.jpg&hash=a7dac4ee8a6396b55f4631df1850818cf31b0e5f)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F543052_424381647582719_2098798437_n.jpg&hash=ba7d52ac5ce70adc8cc8e6999bfbb4f2b923f149)
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Looks to me like you have a warp stator along with the cracks
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Not a chance, more likely a warped stator mount, what the hell is the story with the angled threaded rod? And where the hell did you come up with kaowool?
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I discovered some worrisome cracks this morning in the stater...Should I be concerned????
That's an old unit that's been hanging around the shop for years and I think I dropped it once and cracked that - from the top of the tower actually. I was lowering it to the ground with a rope and the rope broke. That stator has been drilled and re-drilled for a couple different mounts and as long as it's centered between the rotors it'll be fine. Just JB Weld the crack or something, or put some fiberglass tape on it.
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Chris
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Not a chance, more likely a warped stator mount, what the hell is the story with the angled threaded rod? And where the hell did you come up with kaowool?
What angled threaded rod???
I own my own forge.... kaowool is just one of its accesories...
it sure came in handy....
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here is where you can get kaowool or its replacement
http://www.anvilfire.com/sales/pages/kaowool_index.htm
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Oh I have a whole roll of fiberfrax/kaowol, just didn't know he had a forge.
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Chris said I need two 35 amp block diodes to build a rectifier...
I found a 80 Amp 3-Phase Bridge Rectifier for $17 on amazon and bought it for $25 with shipping.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F41Yi4zS03EL._SL500_AA300_.jpg&hash=60d84f50d162810880ce01bf5b7fb985a013545f)
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Chris said i could buy a switch at any Lowes hardware
that I can use as a brake switch for my turbine... for around $12...
Any idea what he is talking about?
Can someone post a picture or a discription, so I can go buy one today... ???
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Chris said i could buy a switch at any Lowes hardware
that I can use as a brake switch for my turbine... for around $12...
I use these two-pole AC outdoor disconnects for small turbines.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202106488&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=202106488&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D27X-_-202106488
You run one generator leg to each of the two load terminals and one leg to one of the supply ones. Then put in a jumper between the two supply ones. When the disconnect is off the turbine runs. When the disconnect is on all three legs of the generator are shorted together and it stops.
The lugs inside will usually handle #8 wire. You run the generator legs right into the switch, and continue on from the lugs in the switch with some more wires to the rectifier (the wires to the rectifier go in the same lugs as the generator leads).
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Chris
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I found a 80 Amp 3-Phase Bridge Rectifier for $17 on amazon and bought it for $25 with shipping.
That rectifier will work fine. Ain't seen too many of them three-phase ones like that. It's doubtful that those little blades for the DC output can handle 80 amps for very long, but it will work fine on your turbine.
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Chris
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If your nervous about it not being big enough you can use two in parallel also.
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Chris said i could buy a switch at any Lowes hardware
that I can use as a brake switch for my turbine... for around $12...
I use these two-pole AC outdoor disconnects for small turbines.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202106488&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=202106488&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D27X-_-202106488
You run one generator leg to each of the two load terminals and one leg to one of the supply ones. Then put in a jumper between the two supply ones. When the disconnect is off the turbine runs. When the disconnect is on all three legs of the generator are shorted together and it stops.
The lugs inside will usually handle #8 wire. You run the generator legs right into the switch, and continue on from the lugs in the switch with some more wires to the rectifier (the wires to the rectifier go in the same lugs as the generator leads).
--
Chris
Is there any switch out there that is not so BIG! :o
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Steadfast.
Schematic diagram stopswitch .
- Frans -
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Is there any switch out there that is not so BIG! :o
You think that's big, you should see the shorting switches on my 3.5 and 4.0 meter machines. It's not unusual for even a little turbine to put out a 200 amp surge when you short it running at full tilt. That will usually weld the contacts in a light duty switch.
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Chris
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i think i see a problem with your wiring plan.it looks like you are using a pipe cap as a thrust bearing with no hole in the center of the cap.the hole appears to be drilled in the threaded partion below.if you run the wiring in below the cap and then down the tower, the tower is going to cut your wires.better to drill the cap and come down the tower that way
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i think i see a problem with your wiring plan.it looks like you are using a pipe cap as a thrust bearing with no hole in the center of the cap.the hole appears to be drilled in the threaded partion below.if you run the wiring in below the cap and then down the tower, the tower is going to cut your wires.better to drill the cap and come down the tower that way
Nice catch, the best way would be to thread cord clamp in the cap to keep the wire from chafing in the hole.
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Chris said i could buy a switch at any Lowes hardware
that I can use as a brake switch for my turbine... for around $12...
I use these two-pole AC outdoor disconnects for small turbines.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202106488&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=202106488&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D27X-_-202106488
You run one generator leg to each of the two load terminals and one leg to one of the supply ones. Then put in a jumper between the two supply ones. When the disconnect is off the turbine runs. When the disconnect is on all three legs of the generator are shorted together and it stops.
The lugs inside will usually handle #8 wire. You run the generator legs right into the switch, and continue on from the lugs in the switch with some more wires to the rectifier (the wires to the rectifier go in the same lugs as the generator leads).
--
Chris
Is there any switch out there that is not so BIG! :o
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I bought the switch...$15 :D
Tell me if I picked up the right one...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F375775_425015884185962_1548109771_n.jpg&hash=e824bc12bffd12adb9ac7580e384035dfe7c53fa)
I have the nonfuseible:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.civicsolar.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fdrawing.JPG&hash=c88267fbd1e294fa66472c081573af97151c35d9)
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i think i see a problem with your wiring plan.it looks like you are using a pipe cap as a thrust bearing with no hole in the center of the cap.the hole appears to be drilled in the threaded partion below.if you run the wiring in below the cap and then down the tower, the tower is going to cut your wires.better to drill the cap and come down the tower that way
Nice catch, the best way would be to thread cord clamp in the cap to keep the wire from chafing in the hole.
We have not drilled the big hole in the top of the cap yet...
Look at the other string...We are copying that pivot...
When my stupid PMA shows up I will get a "Slip Ring" with it,
which I plan to install near th top of the pivot spindle at the top of my mast.
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I bought the switch...$15 :D
Tell me if I picked up the right one...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F375775_425015884185962_1548109771_n.jpg&hash=e824bc12bffd12adb9ac7580e384035dfe7c53fa)
I have the nonfuseible:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.civicsolar.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fdrawing.JPG&hash=c88267fbd1e294fa66472c081573af97151c35d9)
Yep, you bought the wrong one, the thing Chris is talking about is typically used as a disconnect on the outside of the building as a disconnect, it's a simple knife switch, pull it out and plug it in one way and it's off, turn it upside down and plug it in and it's on. I'll try to find a better pic.
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i think i see a problem with your wiring plan.it looks like you are using a pipe cap as a thrust bearing with no hole in the center of the cap.the hole appears to be drilled in the threaded partion below.if you run the wiring in below the cap and then down the tower, the tower is going to cut your wires.better to drill the cap and come down the tower that way
Nice catch, the best way would be to thread cord clamp in the cap to keep the wire from chafing in the hole.
We have not drilled the big hole in the top of the cap yet...
Look at the other string...We are copying that pivot...
When my stupid PMA shows up I will get a "Slip Ring" with it,
which I plan to install near th top of the pivot spindle at the top of my mast.
If you use slip rings on that redelco you are almost sure to be very unhappy, slip rings are very problematic and prone to all kinds of failures.
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This is what you want. http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electrical/breakers-distribution-load-centers/ge/60-amp-non-fuse-ac-disconnect-95039.html
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i prefer this type:
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Breakers-Distribution-Load-Centers-Disconnects/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm0h/R-202978654/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051 (http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Breakers-Distribution-Load-Centers-Disconnects/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm0h/R-202978654/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051)
a little more spendy, but it has an actual handle to throw. the type fab linked to has this odd plastic piece that has to be removed, flipped upside down, and re-inserted (after opening box) to make it work.
i much prefer a handle that can be turned on or off in a second. fiddling with a chunk of plastic while under your tower in a lightning storm doesn't sound like my cup of tea.
adam
edit: don't forget to add a HUGE aluminum heatsink to the back of that rectifier, ideally with a thin layer of heat sink compound, otherwise it may blow at 10 amps...
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I think that breaker one that Steadfast got will work fine. It's got a 60 amp QO breaker in it, and that breaker I'm sure will handle a 200 amp surge for a second without tripping, especially at the low voltage the turbine generator runs at.
For larger turbines I prefer two pole Vacu-Break non-fused boxes rated at 10,000 amp surge RMS symmetrical @ 250 volts, with a continuous rating of at least 200 amps. Those have a big throw lever on them, which like Adam said, is preferred because if I'm not around and my wife needs to shut turbines down before the tornado hits, she knows how to throw those big red handles to stop the turbines.
For giggles once I measured the surge amps with my Fluke on one leg of a 3.8 meter machine running balls out when you throw that Big Red Handle, and the Fluke said 480 amps. Someplace once, I seen some outfit selling "shorting switches" for wind turbines and it was merely a toggle switch mounted in a box. When I seen that I'm like, "that's either for a really little turbine like an Air-X, or these people don't have a clue....."
--
Chris
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yea, that 60A qu breaker will probably work fine. worst case, you throw it once, trips, hold it on, and good.
you could always buy a bigger breaker...
adam
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"that's either for a really little turbine like an Air-X, or these people don't have a clue....."
--
Chris
Or a redelco. LOL
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I'm no where near the level ChrisO has on these gems.
BUT on disconnects, I'm thinking one similar in use for outside A/C unit that has the big ole lever would work just fine.
I've set these type up for people using Solar as power for their sheds.
I believe them to be safe enough due to the break in between up for power on and switch down for shorting for your 'mill, which is full disconnect for solar, we're not allowed anything bigger than Lawn-art here in the city :-(
Cheers;
Bruce S
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I just spoke to Tony at Hurricane... ;D
He told me my modified experimental PMA will be in the mail tomorrow with a Friday delivery.
However, First come first served: :o
If Tony's PMA does not make it by Friday night, we will press forward with work on flying the HBird... (Front hub construction, blade mounting, tower reinforcement, 80 amp 3 phase rectifier installation, weather tracker on mast for wind speed, bike computer for RPM, stop switch)
and MAYBE, just Maybe we will be able to fly the HBird by Sunday night.... ;D
Bumping the LBird's data gathering out of the game for over a month while we gather data info on the HBird instead. 8)
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I was thinking about adding a nose cone to my HBird turbine.
Right now, it will have a 10 inch flat wood front hub...
(Sort of like putting a bar stool, seat first, in the air)
According to the thread on here about nose cones,
having one may not help output efficiency much...
but
Would it help reduce horizontal thrust? ???
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The horizontal thrust component is a function of how much kinetic energy is extracted from the wind flowing thru the rotor's swept area and converted to mechanical power. A nose cone has no effect on it.
A nose cone may very slightly reduce the drag coefficient of the flat hub area when the turbine is facing the wind. However, it will be so slight that it is probably not measurable except with very sophisticated equipment.
The nose cone is purely cosmetic, for the most part.
--
Chris
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GOOD TO KNOW..... ;D
1 less step to worry about...
Thanks!
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They sell nose cones of all shapes and sizes in the pots and pans section at wallmart.
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They do look right purrty when painted just right ;D
I like the one painted with spirals ;)
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I spoke to Tony at Huricane to ask if I was going to find my PMA at the house today.
He said he will mail it to me on monday... >:(
He says that last week he was just days from being able to build the final PMA.
That he did no want to send me a "Stand in" PMA when he was so close to finishing it.
Now that he has the parts all in, he is building the final product now. :-\
So, as promised, the Father in Law and I are going to bust our tails to get the HBird flying instead.
Assuming the regulator shows up in the mail and we can get all the work on the front hub and the tower done and the HBird up and running this weekend, it looks like Tony's PMA is going to have to wait a month before recieving his performance data.
The new photos will be coming!
Hopefully, a video of it spinning by Sunday evening.
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I spoke to Tony at Huricane to ask if I was going to find my PMA at the house today.
He said he will mail it to me on monday... >:(
And how long has this guy had your money now? And you knew what you ordered, right? And now it's just a "standin" and he's only "days from building the final product"?
C'mon man. Sooner or later you have to throw in the towel and call it. The guy is running a scam. Except this time he made the mistake of messing with a dude who happened to know some dudes who know what's going on. And being he knows he's got his ass kicked big time he keeps coming up with excuses until he can figure a way to wiggle his out of this jam that is now published on a public forum.
I love it when a plan comes together, baby. ;D
--
Chris
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That poor scammer, summich really stepped on his wee wee, and he just don't see a way out, next thing you know he will call you and tell you his dog, knocked over a can of thinner which the pilot light from the water heater ignited and burned the entire "factory" and all it's contents to the ground. LMAO.
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that's a bummer steadfast.
i really truly think tony is scared to send you the delco. sure he knows enough to build a PMA that produces electricity, but i think he is very lacking in being able to produce a unit with correct cut in rpms for a given blade set, and produce a proportionate amount of power for that blade set.
now that he's in the public eye, and knows it, he doesn't want to look a fool. the BIG problem he's trying to over come is trying to pull 4-500 watts from a delco with a 6-7' blade diameter. i just don't see how you can cram enough wire and magnets into a delco to get that performance.
either way, it will be good to see the results once a month goes by.
have you directly asked tony if the unit is returnable after a month of flying with poor results? just something i'd be worried about!
adam
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Yes I have asked... and yes it is...
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The way it looks to me, Steadfast, is that this tony is stalling in the hopes you'll just ask for a refund and then he's off the hook. I mean, you've had how many promises of delivery (even one by hand in person), and how many different excuses has there been?
The good thing is you got a wind turbine you can put up. But we really wanted to show folks why them converted car alternators with fancy bent aluminum blades don't work as a wind turbine, and why you're wasting your money if you buy one. This was the perfect opportunity to put the two side by side and show all the newbies how it's done.
So I dunno. This latest excuse is pretty lame. Even lamer than the one about the tornados sucking up his factory, and that was damn lame. When you pay perfectly good money for something, I have never heard so many line of BS in my entire life as to why you aren't getting what you bought and paid for.
--
Chris
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ive rewired those truck alts every witch way but loose.! no thanks..
you need a lot of winds of small wire to get a decent cut in speed..that equals low amps. ive never seen such a long debate on this type of alt,-on FIELDLINES..
what chris gave you will far exceed the other...dont even bother with a run comparison !
been their done it--new better but did it any way==waste of time...............................hiker
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Hiker did you take that picture?
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hello fab.....
just a shot taken last summer..its a place i go rock climbing..been going up there for years..
the sheep are use to me....there horns make me a bit nervoius at times...fun stuff
if you want some picts just drop a email.......
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Wow that is cool, I don't think I've ever heard of a sheep attack on a human. ;D
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Today's work on the HBird:
Hoizontal thrust reinforcement cage for mast of heavy wind turbine.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F599880_427847670569450_893966415_n.jpg&hash=c8770db52c98de78f412759353890ee690ea55d1)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F269386_427849217235962_802203278_n.jpg&hash=e06b01ee7f9ca7bdf8ed4bf9b3ee365fc9f221f4)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F229882_427849687235915_466062742_n.jpg&hash=199f75931d6875e4e3536534ad63ec5b31f26171)
Template of rear face plate because Chris made it impossible to remove the stupid thing.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F250890_427849953902555_200385719_n.jpg&hash=80924206920263b5821c68d68033cd2c213f3bfc)
Fully installed short out switch to stop turbine and 3 phase to DC 80 amp rectifier.
Thats right it actually arrived today (Saturday) around 2:30 pm... I could NOT believe it!
It was in vagas friday at 5pm how it made it here, I have no idea...wow....
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F481375_427850933902457_1301360019_n.jpg&hash=dd2782b3eb1283ef795e22f0a2ddc6ca608f2bd3)
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50 watt dc fan to be used in the future load dump.... just keeping things cool for now.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F285664_427852797235604_926919828_n.jpg&hash=c22a7b7fd2eb44c36b6af430b460b84d8480c46c)
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Template of rear face plate because Chris made it impossible to remove the stupid thing.
Steadfast, no it's not impossible to remove - you need a puller. That's why I told you to not try to take it off. I hope you didn't loosen up the set bolts or nose bolt because chances are you didn't get things positioned correctly and torque the bolts right, and it will come loose.
That's one of my old-style hubs that doesn't have a square key in it. It had two drive notches in the shaft that the set bolts engage in and the nose bolt that screws into the front is loctited and torqued to 35 lb-ft.
To mount blades on it, a template will work. But what I do is c-clamp the blades to the hub and get the rotor dimensioned and blade tip distances set correctly. Then mark thru the holes in the rear of the hub flange with a marker to drill the blade roots.
--
Chris
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"impossible"...means it would not budge a MM....
So, Yes , it is still set in its original spot...
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This is Sunday's Progress ;D --- and tower Failure :'( >:(
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balancing the blades:
Everything is flowers and berries so far..
"chirp chirp" says the happy blue bird!
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Nice looking paint job on the blades!
TOWER failure!?
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I promised to post all the event as they happen:
The good, bad and the UGLY…. So here goes…
AND NOW: Sundays Spectacular SECOND tower FAILIURE!
While raising it....half way up....
The tower went all "Spaghetti" and bent wildly right and left!
Then my 1000lb wench's tension bar snapped... :o
So I quickly started to safely lower it down again...
I got with in 3 feet from the ground when the mast gave up the ghost and dropped!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F522655_428285913858959_1504562130_n.jpg&hash=fbeb58bbc76406183af0edc4caf2a76cb3669f4d)
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The turbine made it down...mostly unharmed...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F318145_428286693858881_922893846_n.jpg&hash=7cec574a194dc2b6bafc1ac52d01961e6b2ba181)
THE DAMAGE:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F166066_428287227192161_2129053113_n.jpg&hash=1bfeb1d18b636202184eacd1027ea39931e133ba)
The only damage to the blades... thankful for that...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F537607_428288510525366_1743000241_n.jpg&hash=6694269bf883ae5a8d2b56f93bc01f8c562aaf07)
The tension pin on the wench also failed
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F294913_428288960525321_1861861465_n.jpg&hash=8af6093c290e2e6e01a7f998bea5e2d2f4758dd7)
Now "all I gotta do" is rebuild my entire tower design again and THROW MORE MONEY AT IT TOO!
gee, no problem.... :'( :-[ >:(
I found a place here in Raleigh that will sell me a 20ft long stick of 4 inch wide, 3/16 thick, square black pipe for $161.00; which will fit perfectly and weld into the 4inch bottom of that 10ft long angle iron cage we built which survived the failure intact and unscathed.
I'll have to rebuild my hinge with a MUCH thicker screw... the gin pole worked flawlessly... so, I will keep that too...
I was thinking about buying a 2500Lb winch preferably with a worm drive...
Do you guys know where I can find one that wont run me $300?
Do any of you have an extra one laying around that you want to sell me?
.
.
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am slightly lost for words - am sorry for your loss
but am I the only one who assumed that ''tower'' was intended just for the alt based mill ?
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Hi
It looks like you made the same mistake as I did with my first attempt, a solid wood blade root, I used a piece of oak and it split like a carrot. Ply wood or metal plate only for anything which can be stressed by the blades, The torsional stresses on the blade root is tremendous, the failure you had was lucky, had it gone on a big yaw moment your blades could have detached.
Your welding looks OK have you not thought about building a triangular latice tower from 1 in tube with flat or angle braces?
Brian.
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Hi
Your welding looks OK have you not thought about building a triangular latice tower from 1 in tube with flat or angle braces?
Brian.
I have thought about that... But Chris told me that if I did the lattace work tower that I would also have to increase the amount of concerte in my base by 4x the amount. He said I would be better just keep the base the same and getting a Stronger Pipe 3" or 4" across instead...
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Damn, this thread is getting very tedious, watching you make stupid mistake after stupid mistake, you would be a LOT better off sending Chris's alt back cancelling the redelco and buying more solar, you are obviously a danger to yourself and others.
Two questions, did you have the mill on the tower on the first raising? and were your side guys attached while the "Tower" was going up?
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Damn, this thread is getting very tedious, watching you make stupid mistake after stupid mistake, you would be a LOT better off sending Chris's alt back cancelling the redelco and buying more solar, you are obviously a danger to yourself and others.
Two questions, did you have the mill on the tower on the first raising? and were your side guys attached while the "Tower" was going up?
Gotta love your eternal optimism!
hey, thats we we love you so much.... :P
But, to answer your questions:
1. We had the LBird on the tower which was raised effortlessly, not the Hbird because it did not exsist yet.
The LBird weighs 20+ pounds soaking wet...
the HBird ended up being 60 pounds by itself.
the "anti-horizontal thrust reinforcement cage" added for the HBird's thrust was another 60+ pounds.
2. The only guys attached, where the 2 attached to the gin pole.
(I can only assume that this was a mistake???)
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Hi
The failure was predicted by many of us.. The difference is Steadfast is prepared to document and post the information. So when the next newby comes along the outcome can be displayed, and many will read this thread before asking daft questions or start their build being pre informed, and anyone asking the I want a wid turbine is it easy and how much power will it make can be pointed to this thread.
I agree he could do better with solar I said so at the beginning but he has come so far and others have assisted him almost to the point of hand holding, I would like to see him succeed. I would recomend he buys a good book on basic engineering and learns about the loading and stresses on a simple beam, fulcrums and levers.
I don't see any "YIPPEE IT'S HERE" posts from the read Delco yet though. So don't drive him away yet.
Brian.
Any news on the spell checker yet? I am told my spelling defies gravity so I cant believe the last few posts were error free.
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Yes all the guys need to be attached, otherwise you got a noodle supported in only half of one axis, and you never, ever raise a new mill on an existing tower unless the new mill is a lot lighter.
You also don't need a new winch, you just need to double or triple line from the WINCH to the gin pole, go from the WINCH to the gin pole through a pulley, otherwise known as a snatch block back to the WINCH anchor through another snatch block and then anchor to the gin pole, that will slow your line speed down but triple your mechanical advantage.
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Hi
It will also mean he needs more cable on his winch spool. I would have made sure I knew the working load of the cable, the capacity of the winch, the weight of the load and the mechanical advantage or loss of the gin pole before I started. Working alone he is also going to have problems stabilising the guy wires. The way the mast has bent is a clear display of overloading of the mast at the point it failed. If it did not fail now it would have failed the first time a decent wind blew, read back through the posts and it was predicted by a number of people.
You were lucky noone was hurt, or any property was damaged, a 60 pound lump of anything falling straight down will gain a lot of energy, swinging through a 30ft arc on the end of a pole will be like a giant hammer on any thing it hits. Add to the fact the wire cables thrashing about like a whip. The potential is for a lot of pain.
I am not convinced square section is the way to go for your replacement, the maximum strength is on the diagonals. Most of the masts on here seem to be scedule 40 round tube. Being in the UK that doesn't mean much to me but it does point to an accepted mechanical strength, and which ever side of the pond you live we are all bound by the same laws of physics
Before you try to raise any type of generator I would have a dummy run with a bag of sand tied to the top of the mast.
Brian.
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The reason for the failure was clearly the fact that the only guy wires hooked up were the ones on the gin pole.
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Steadfast,
How many guy wires are you using? Seems I remember seeing something in your first thread about only using three?
CM
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He only had the three on the gin pole hooked up, that was the cause of the failure everything else is immaterial.
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Fab,
Look at the photo and the pivot direction of the tower base.
One guy wire should be on the gin pole. Two guy wires should be located at 90 degrees to the pivot point and one guy wire at 180 degrees from the gin pole.
How can one of the 90 degree guy wires be placed (under tension when raised) with the shed is in the way?
Sure, it failed because the only attached guy wire was on the gin pole but it also appears the guy wires can't be attached and tensioned properly because of the shed getting in the way.
CM
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The whole thing is such a cluster flock it's really almost time to unsubscribe from this one.
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As was stated this happened while he was raising the mast not while it was in operation.
upon noticing the mast was turning into spaghetti he started lowering it to the ground.
When he had it about 3 feet from the ground is when it cratered on him.
Looking back at the previous pictures it is plain to see he had 4 or 6 guys located on the mast. None of these could have done him any good while raising the mast due to his location.
Sometimes trying to do a thing on your own without help you run into problems. And sometimes when you have 50 people 4 cranes and 6 oilfield gin pole trucks trying to raise a 145ft derrick things can still go wrong when the guy who prepared the location did so by covering over old mud pits and never told anyone. A sad site to see $4 mill worth of rig turn into scrap metal and 20 men wind up hauled off in helicopters.
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(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F522655_428285913858959_1504562130_n.jpg&hash=fbeb58bbc76406183af0edc4caf2a76cb3669f4d)
Fab,
Look at the photo and the pivot direction of the tower base.
One guy wire should be on the gin pole. Two guy wires should be located at 90 degrees to the pivot point and one guy wire at 180 degrees from the gin pole.
How can one of the 90 degree guy wires be placed (under tension when raised) with the shed is in the way?
Sure, it failed because the only attached guy wire was on the gin pole but it also appears the guy wires can't be attached and tensioned properly because of the shed getting in the way.
CM
The guy on that side doesn't need to be at 90 degrees, he could put a temporary guy on the back corner of the shed to keep the thing from doing what it did until it gets close to a spot where the normal guy wire can be snagged on, that should work fine.
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My head hurts.
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Welcome to the club brother.
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So... which is stronger and more stable.... square 40 schedual or round 40 schedual?
because at this point we are consitering scrapping the whole tower and building the entire 30 foot mast and gin pole, all out of 4" square... I just bought a 3000 lb winch with a worm drive to replace my old 1000 lb one... suggestions before I go into structural overkill are requested.
Randome snide pesimissim maybe deserved but it is not helpful.
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dont consider rectangular pipe with round pipe, I would recommend a minimum of sch80 or sch160, sch40 anit gonna do it with round or square pipe, relatively speaking...
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That is the best thing I've read on this thread in many pages, sched 40 3" round would be plenty if you are still going to use guy wires, or get a 20 foot length of 4" and a 20" length of 3" lap em two feet and you'll be good to go.
But you still need guy wires and you still need them all hooked up, even if the ones that go over the shed are just temporary until you can hook the permanent ones up.
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All pipes have a wall thickness gauge or thickness grade listed in grade, such as sch40, sch80, or sch160. structural steel, has the same identifiers as boiler pipe...
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suggestions before I go into structural overkill are requested.
There is no such thing as structural overkill on wind turbine towers. You can design a lattice for 90 mph survival, no ice. Get an ice storm and it collapses at 45 mph wind speed. Lattice towers are the absolute worst for ice and wind loading problems and it is no small engineering feat to design and build one that will not have a problem with certain natural frequency ranges that can cause it to fail with a wind turbine on it.
That's why most DIY'ers use the guyed pipe type. You don't need a degree in structural engineering to put one up that will stay up.
I think you have the homebrew book there and they also cover guyed pipe towers in there. It would be good to at least review that before proceeding. Your failure, as fabricator noted, was due to not having the thing guyed and only using the gin cables to pull it up. I have raised 90 foot guyed pipe towers made of 8" x 11 gauge wall tube with a 300 lb turbine on them with no problems at all. But without those side guys that 8" diameter tower would fail just like yours did.
A 4" x 11 gauge wall will support the weight of that turbine without even breathing hard. But without the proper guys on it, it will also whip around like a limp noodle. Building more rigidity into the tube will never work - all that tube does is support the vertical weight. It is the guy wires that support it in a horizontal direction.
--
Chris
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Chris,
What is the wall thickness for 11gauge with the pipe/tubing your using atleast a 1/4inch ?
-EDIT- Just as a side note there is such a thing as sch120...-
JW
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11 gauge is .125". 10 gauge is .1406". This is structural tubing, measured on the OD.
Schedule pipe is different and was never meant for structural purposes, but it is more common than structural tubing. Schedule 40 4", as an example, is .237" wall. Schedule 80 4" is .337" wall. Schedule 120 4" is .438" wall. The OD of pipe changes with wall cross section. The ID of structural tubing changes with wall cross section.
--
Chris
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steadfast-
bummer about the tower. you were warned though... either way, it's great to see you looking at "real" steel now. ~$160 for a 20' chunk sounds awful high to me. i made my 70' tower out of .156 wall 4" pipe. 20' chunks ran me ~$65 each in the "salvage" area of the steel yard near me. it was a little rusty, but straight!
your guys are going to be your big issue. the shed is a bit in the way. the reason most of us use guys in sets of four, is so the tower is held in place on the side to side (like yours failed) motion while raising. many of us also use two extra guys to hold the gin straight in the same plane.
towers recieve a massive amount of force while raising. that's why these things have to be well planned!
i like fabs idea of 3" schedule 40 slid into 4" sch 40. that would be pretty strong!
adam
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Square or round? Which is srltronger on the way up...
do we build it 4 inches all the way up or 4 for twenty feet and 3" for the remaining ten feet?
I imagine the square pipe would be easier to build a sheath to bind the pipes together where they join...
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i like fabs idea of 3" schedule 40 slid into 4" sch 40.
Actually, 3" Schedule 40 slip fits into 3.5" Schedule 40.
While everybody uses Schedule pipe for guyed pipe towers, it has a low strength to weight ratio. Pipe is designed to carry liquid and gas, not for structural purposes. All commercial towers are built using structural steel - structural tubing and/or sometimes mechanical tubing (seamless), depending on the application.
Structural tubing is by far better than using Schedule pipe for towers and yields a much higher strength to weight ratio. But it is also more expensive.
--
Chris
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Square or round? Which is srltronger on the way up...
4" square is much stiffer than 4" round over its length. This is why most big monopole sign posts are made of large square section tubing. But it is also heavier. There is no advantage to using square on a small turbine tower with guy wires, and it will cost more.
--
Chris
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;D Check out "round vs. Square tube strength" on homebuiltairplanes.com.
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Square or round? Which is srltronger on the way up...
4" square is much stiffer than 4" round over its length. This is why most big monopole sign posts are made of large square section tubing. But it is also heavier. There is no advantage to using square on a small turbine tower with guy wires, and it will cost more.
--
Chris
the 4 inch square costs $5 more than the round for a 20ft length... It is also 3/16 thick...
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Steadfast,
You just keep plugging along.
I am loving your built and the fact that you are receiving so much help speaks volumes about those who share their knowledge.
I will now shut up and watch you become what you will become.
Kenneth
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Dude, square at the same wall thickness as round wins in deflection loading, column loading, you name it. Pound for pound (thinner wall square vs thicker wall round) there will be little difference.
You got a McDonalds around there? Just walk in and tell 'em you're the sign repair man. Then rush out to the parking lot and cut the bolts off with the torch on that big sign post with the Golden Arches on it. When it crashes to the ground scrap the 200 square ft of Golden Arches and sign and have about 8 guys handy to latch onto that big square tube and load it on the trailer. Rush home with it and you got yourself a 40 foot free-standing turbine tower that will take 150 mph wind with no problem.
Kind of reminds me of the days when me a bunch of guys backed a pickup up to an outhouse at a country school, tipped it into the back of the pickup and took off with it. :-X
BTW - if we see in the news where somebody stole the post on the McDonalds sign in North Carolina, we won't say nuthin'......
--
Chris
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Square or round? Which is srltronger on the way up...
4" square is much stiffer than 4" round over its length. This is why most big monopole sign posts are made of large square section tubing. But it is also heavier. There is no advantage to using square on a small turbine tower with guy wires, and it will cost more.
--
Chris
the 4 inch square costs $5 more than the round for a 20ft length... It is also 3/16 thick...
Like Chris says structural comes in different wall thicknesses, you can get that 4" square down to 1/16" wall thickness.
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All pipes have a wall thickness gauge or thickness grade listed in grade, such as sch40, sch80, or sch160. structural steel, has the same identifiers as boiler pipe...
Not sure where you got that from, boiler pipe has a whole different nomenclature than structural steel, it's a completely different animal. Boiler pipe is seamless structural steel is resistance welded unless you order DOM tubing and that's still way different that steam pipe.
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Putting that tower up is serious business. It's in your back yard after all, it cannot fail and come crashing down. People will use that back yard and if it falls it could kill someone.
Make sure you understand exactly how to do this and don't expect that gumption and tenacity will circumvent sound engineering. This will be an engineering challenge for you and I hope you and your father in law are not in over your head. I've never raised a tower so I have no first hand experience in the matter so I would rely heavily on senior members here to make this a safe operation. No more plowing through on a weekend build. Plan first, then action... and read that book!
If you had this thing in the middle of a field I'd say go for whatever makes you happy. But it's not, and I don't want someone to get hurt.
Be safe with this and have fun,
CM
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Here is the new winch I just bought:
Product Description :
DAYTON Winch,Worm Gear,3000 Lb Single Line Pull.
for the SMOKIN price of $134.78/EA(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcloudfront.zorotools.com%2Fproduct%2Ffull%2F1DJN5_AS01.JPG&hash=11657f900a06015ee8d1e68f30680df3624952d4)
http://www.zorotools.com/g/00053854/k-1DJN5/
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Like Chris says structural comes in different wall thicknesses, you can get that 4" square down to 1/16" wall thickness.
I took an old Whirlwind turbine down that was on a 40 foot free-standing tower made of 8" square by 1/4" wall for the base section and 7" x 10 gauge for the top section. It was welded to a 1" thick plate that was bolted to 20 tons concrete in the ground and had a hinge on it to tilt it to lower it. You could hook on the top of that 8" square with a D8 Cat and couldn't bend it or pull it over. Tried it because the guy wanted the concrete foundation of of the ground. Didn't work. Couldn't even budge it - all it did was spin the tracks on the Cat. I cut the hinge off and cobbed the 8" tubing. The concrete is still there.
--
Chris
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Steadfast, Is this going to be sufficient for your new tower? Will you be moving it away from your shed to give you clearance for your guys? Truckman
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Love the colour scheme on the blades!!!
Gavin
Cambridge, England
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Here is the new winch I just bought:
Product Description :
DAYTON Winch,Worm Gear,3000 Lb Single Line Pull.
for the SMOKIN price of $134.78/EA(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcloudfront.zorotools.com%2Fproduct%2Ffull%2F1DJN5_AS01.JPG&hash=11657f900a06015ee8d1e68f30680df3624952d4)
http://www.zorotools.com/g/00053854/k-1DJN5/
Single line pull is not a good idea in any case, at least go from the winch to a snatch block on the gin then back to an anchor point on the winch mount.
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Couple 10 foot pieces of Rohn 25g at $119 each would be a simple fix... at 30 feet it can handle a lot of load.
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Single line pull is not a good idea in any case, at least go from the winch to a snatch block on the gin then back to an anchor point on the winch mount.
this is very good advice. it lowers the strain on your winch (though not the winch mount), and makes the whole process a little slower and more predictable.
adam
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Single line pull is not a good idea in any case, at least go from the winch to a snatch block on the gin then back to an anchor point on the winch mount.
this is very good advice. it lowers the strain on your winch (though not the winch mount), and makes the whole process a little slower and more predictable.
adam
I will look into buying one or two of them...
what size do you think I might need?
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I think that you need to make your gin pole 50% of the tower height.
Just cut the lower section off the tower and put it up . With all the trees you don"t stand a chance Of making any power .
Just make sure it is tall enough to clear the roof of the shed by a few feet.
A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.
Nasty comment.sorry jlt
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A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.
wow, that wasn't very nice!
anyways, this should do you just fine so long as your pull cable is 5/16" or smaller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029)
adam
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A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.
wow, that wasn't very nice!
anyways, this should do you just fine so long as your pull cable is 5/16" or smaller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029)
adam
ok... I just bought one... 8)
Do you guys have a photo of how one of these snatch block things is mounted on a Gin Pole?
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I think that you need to make your gin pole 50% of the tower height.
Just cut the lower section off the tower and put it up . With all the trees you don"t stand a chance Of making any power .
Just make sure it is tall enough to clear the roof of the shed by a few feet.
A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.
Nasty comment.sorry jlt
weiner award.... >:(
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Floop48.com%2Fbump%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F08%2Fbigweinerwithbow.jpg&hash=f53412d4ee6e64bfa1d45dd122dd64fb882b0f06)
truthful comment.sorry
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i welded a big flange to my gin pole. here you can see the gin guys, as well as the tower guys.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi995.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf78%2Fbirdhouseadam%2Fturbine%2Fginend.jpg&hash=3a97c9e050092e3bac7682fe046418ffa6f3fcbb)
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That's what I needed to see... got it... thanks!
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when you position your new worm winch,you should notice if you thread the cable in from one side,you pull the spool away from the worm gear.this is bad.thread the cable in from the other side so the spool of cable will pull into the worm gear.this increases the gear tooth contact and prevents gear slipage/failer.my vote on the tower is the 4 inch square tube,3/16 wall,all the way up.2by 3 inch by1/4 angle iron fish plate/cable flanges on tower joints and cable attachment points.this would have the additional benifit of being strong enough to allow increasing turbin size in the future if increased capacity is needed.spellcheck still not working
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A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.
wow, that wasn't very nice!
anyways, this should do you just fine so long as your pull cable is 5/16" or smaller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029)
adam
ok... I just bought one... 8)
Do you guys have a photo of how one of these snatch block things is mounted on a Gin Pole?
Yikes for 16 bux I'd make sure it has a grade 8 bolt, grade 8 will have five marks on the head.
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A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.
wow, that wasn't very nice!
anyways, this should do you just fine so long as your pull cable is 5/16" or smaller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029)
adam
ok... I just bought one... 8)
Do you guys have a photo of how one of these snatch block things is mounted on a Gin Pole?
Yikes for 16 bux I'd make sure it has a grade 8 bolt, grade 8 will have five marks on the head.
I have serious doubts about that snatch block having an 8000LB capacity, and the snap ring holding it together is an accident waiting to happen. Just my .02c
And did you ask about country of origin? I'll bet 20 bucks its China >:( Yes I am biased
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Any device used for hoisting or lifting needs a minimum safety factor of4 to one , 8 to one if it goes on my elevators. Any wire rope sheave needs a bend radius of 15 diameters 30 if it is used for hoisting.
For the occasional one time use you can get away with tighter bend radius one easy way to tell if a block will carry your load is to take the cross sectional area of the pin multiply by the yield strength divide by 4 to get safety factor
This is not the correct to do this but the down& dirty way. never assume the pin is any stronger than low grade mild steel consider that a 1/2" shaft pin with an area of .196sq" @ 36,000 psi yield would take 7068 Lbs to bend it @4>1 you would have 1767 safe working load And even at that it would be dodgy because no account was taken for the snap ring grove or the side plates or the looseness between the sheave & side plates the thickness of the side plates or anything else
even a 3/4" shaft pin using this way to figure only has .441" x36,000=15,894/4=3,976lbs. A well made snatch block will use 150,000PSI pin stock or better .441x150,000=66,150/4=16,537 and will only be rated by the MFG for 4 tons
[attach=1]
when in doubt always try to err to the direction of safety
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That is why I'd put a grade 8 bolt through it with a couple jamb nuts or a nylock nut on it.
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i use cheap pulleys much like i listed for raising my 70' tower, and have yet to have an issue. i'll bet they'll be just fine for steadfasts short tower.
more quality would be great, but they get spendy real quick!
adam
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i use cheap pulleys much like i listed for raising my 70' tower, and have yet to have an issue. i'll bet they'll be just fine for steadfasts short tower.
more quality would be great, but they get spendy real quick!
adam
That may be so, yet its no different than someone selling a car alternator claiming it will put out a 1000 watts as a wind generator, isn't that a big part of this thread, the honesty of sellers? Quality has never been cheap, being cheap on a part that is critical to the lifting of an expensive parts is just plain foolish. The seller of those snatchblocks does not list country of origin, and has rated them (at best) by shear strength, sorry, I do not condone deceptive salesmen.
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That is why I'd put a grade 8 bolt through it with a couple jamb nuts or a nylock nut on it.
Nothing wrong with that as long as the threads are not in shear
i use cheap pulleys much like i listed for raising my 70' tower, and have yet to have an issue. i'll bet they'll be just fine for steadfasts short tower.
more quality would be great, but they get spendy real quick!
Don't get me wrong I have no qualms about using dodgy stuff sometimes, but if I had a doubt I'd see if I could break the cable before the snatch block does.
raising his tower a 2 ton Mas-dam come-along would probably do the job only it would not have long enough take up cable .
But one of these has kept me out of trouble more times than I can count.
[attach=1]
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Those are more commonly known as a grip hoist or tri for, lots of guys use em, especially in places where there is no power available to run a winch.
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If I bought a second one, would that reduce the strain on the one?
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Yes. every snatch block you add reduces the strain on the others, slows your line speed and increases the mechanical advantage, you are essentially adding pulley bolts which reduces the load on the others, add ten snatch blocks and that winch would slide your house, given string enough anchor points.
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OK.... I just bought a second one...
MAN, you guys like spending my money... ::)
Don't get me wrong...If I need it I need it... It just sucks.
Besides,
I kinda felt a little hinky about having my cable go from the winch
through the "one and only contact point" snatch block on the gin and back to the winch...
Now, my cable will go from the winch through the snatch block on the gin,
back down to another snatch block on the winch stand and back up to the gin.
This way, with the two, I increase my strength, decrease the tension on both of them,
and at least my gin pole is still attached to the winch...in the end...
So, if the gin pole Snatch block snaps at least my tower wont naked free fall.
Can you tell, I am done chinsing out and playing around.
I am completely submitting to your instruction now...
.
.
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Now, my cable will go from the winch through the snatch block on the gin,
back down to another snatch block on the winch stand and back up to the gin.
This way, with the two, I increase my strength, decrease the tension on both of them,
and at least my gin pole is still attached to the winch...in the end...
So, if the gin pole Snatch block snaps at least my tower wont naked free fall.
Can you tell, I am done chinsing out and playing around.
I am completely submitting to your instruction now...
.
.
You have the reeving or rigging analogy down but if any one point snaps you are in free fall no mater if you put 100 snatch blocks in line. what you are doing is reducing the strain on the cable and all points of connection
you are now at a 3 to 1 mechanical advantage and a 1 to 3 movement disadvantage. About as good as you should ever need in raising your tower keep in mind however the more lines of purchase you have the longer your cable will need to be this will mean the more winding of the cable on the drum at some point ther would be more cable than the drum could hold then you would have to anchor off and remove and shorten the cable then start again.
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steadfast-
at some point ther would be more cable than the drum could hold then you would have to anchor off and remove and shorten the cable then start again.
do you have the specs for your winch? IE: how many feet of "x" diameter cable the drum will hold?? and what is the diameter of the cable your using as your raising cable? and how long is your gin pole? and how far is the winch from the tower base?
the reason i ask, is you may not be able to use the second pulley, as it will create more cable than your winch can wind up. you may even be better off using thinner raising cable to give you more winch room on the drum.
for raising, i use 1/4" though i really should probably be using 5/16". i pesonally only use one pulley at the gin. the other pulley in my photo is only there to let the raising cable pull nice at straight, and pull the gin directly towards the gin footing. i still use my truck for raising, as i haven't had the time to get a winch installed. i just drive two footed in 4x4 (one foot always hovering over the brake pedal).
adam
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birdhouse; if this is the winch he bought it will hold 60 ft of5/16" cable . I need to re read how his rigging is and where the placements of his snatch blocks are going to be in relation to the tower & gin pole as I have not heard mention of a point sheave on the gin pole
Here is the new winch I just bought:
Product Description :
DAYTON Winch,Worm Gear,3000 Lb Single Line Pull.
for the SMOKIN price of $134.78/EA(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcloudfront.zorotools.com%2Fproduct%2Ffull%2F1DJN5_AS01.JPG&hash=11657f900a06015ee8d1e68f30680df3624952d4)
http://www.zorotools.com/g/00053854/k-1DJN5/
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I have to make and entirely new mast and gin pole first...
BUT
My gin pole will be 8 ft long from the mast hinge.
When the mast is fully raised the gin pole is 3 inches from the front of the winch stand.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F522178_408073992546818_100000326622548_1315991_875615727_n.jpg&hash=f043bfbdaa5e2dfbafc997c23dc34181c3af3378)
So, I should only need a minimum of 30ft of 5/16" Stainless Steel Cable.
but I will buy 50ft...
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Those are more commonly known as a grip hoist or tri for, lots of guys use em, especially in places where there is no power available to run a winch.
Yea Fab my company has about 60 of them 4s 8s & 16ton jobs its about the only way possible to raise the fabric for the tent canopies to cover a 400 car parking lot or a small stadium or the play grounds for a K through 12 school. impossible to raise a 2000 sq meter fabric to the top of 20 support columns any other way
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Hi
If your gin pole is 3 inches from the winch in the horizontal you are going to have a tremendous loading on the winch, as long as the gin pole is comming downwards it will be working, as soon as the cable gets closer to horizontal you will lose the lifting moment the gin pole has on the mast. The easiest way round that would be to make the angle between the gin pole and the mast more accute.
Read Frank S's comments again on cable lengths and mechanical advantage. With a 30 ft tower and an 8 ft gin pole, once you know the weight of your mast with whatever you put on top of it, and the distance from the pivot point, and the distance up the mast your gin pole connects you can calculate the load on your winch. My mast is 30 ft and by mounting my winch on the side of a tree stump, I don't use a gin pole but my pull is never near horizontal at the same time as the mast. My turbine weight is about 60 pounds or so with the fibre glass blades, I use a power winch which comes with the facility to return the cable to an anchor on the winch and the hook is on a pully much larger than the one in the snatch block you show. With the cable return you get a slower and much more control on the lift. Also the pivot bolt at the bottom of your mast is not just taking the weight of your mast it has a very large sideways shearing moment from the gin pole. The comments about not putting the thread under shear is sound advice, if I remember correctly you were advised to weld a piece of tube through the mast for the pivot bolt to run through.
Brian.
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Hi
If your gin pole is 3 inches from the winch in the horizontal you are going to have a tremendous loading on the winch, as long as the gin pole is comming downwards it will be working, as soon as the cable gets closer to horizontal you will lose the lifting moment the gin pole has on the mast. The easiest way round that would be to make the angle between the gin pole and the mast more accute.
Brian.
I need to see what you are talking about in a photo or drawing format...
The comments about not putting the thread under shear is sound advice, if I remember correctly you were advised to weld a piece of tube through the mast for the pivot bolt to run through.
Brian.
We did that last time, and I plan to do that again with a MUCH bigger Bolt this time as well...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F545929_397839720236912_1614387186_n.jpg&hash=7ff054bd8075fdd085419e7c57430771a4331928)
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Hi
Make the angle between the mast and the gin pole less than 90 degrees, so the end of the gin pole is never level with the winch. Make sure you don't pul your mast over verticle though. Your background in basic mechanics is full of holes, see if you can find a book with drawings of pully systems. Or look at drawings on the internet, the information is out there I don't have enough time at the moment to find the links to send you so your going to have to look yourself.
Look how others on here have raised their towers, not the ones who pull them up with a truck, there are no end of videos on how it has been done.
Steer clear of hydraulics that is a whole different game.
Brian
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Really dumb question here...... I have googled this every way I can think of but what is the best way to figure out the average wind speeds in a localized area? I saw a website that had 10 classes based on the average wind speed for a year but haven't been able to find the data for my area. Any help would be great.... Thanks, Truckman
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There is an ap for THAT... 8)
If you own a smartphone look up and download "Windfinder Pro"
it has thousands of locations broadcasting live wind speeds!
It also forcasts daily wind speeds (by hour) a week out in time.
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So steadfast, did tony hurricance deliver the delco genny? Didn't he promise by last monday? Or is he still waiting for the super vortex field neo magnets?
I'm not trying to pull your chain, but I have been following this post from day one and gave Tony the benefit of the doubt. I think a good amount of time has gone by and he is only giving you lame excuses because you are a newbie. There is no such thing as vortex field magnets or what ever he calls them. So that is why most of the professionals on this board have been telling you from day one it was a scam. I'm curious to hear what new excuse he will give you....
I do admire your perserverance and you keep going on in spite of everyone telling you it won't work.
Good luck with your project! The machine Chris gave you plus the solar you already have will make a nice system.
Warrior
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steadfast-
My gin pole will be 8 ft long from the mast hinge.
that's less than ideal for a 30' tower. i know you've put a lot of work into the winch footings ect....,... BUT if your looking at 4" sch 40 pipe, or even 3/16 wall square stock, i REALLY think you might rip your winch footings right out of the ground with the additional tower weight and an 8' gin pole. there's a LOT of forces on a very short lever arm.
IE: my gin is 32' long for a 70' tower. i skimped a bit as the general rule is the gin should be 1/2 the tower height. another general rule is guy RADIUS should be 1/2 the tower height.
if you build a 30' tower with 4" sch 40, i don't think that 8' gin pole is going to handle it! maybe your winch won't rip out, but i'll bet the gin will deflect (taco).
i'm no engineer, but i see lots of stuff that has been engineered, and take constant mental notes.
let's try and avoid another bent tower. did you ever read that bergy wind tower link i sent you a while back on the original thread? no insult, just curious.
not trying to be a debbie downer, but rather trying to help you build a robust tower that inspires confidence every time you raise/lower it.
adam
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additional though!
maybe make a SUPER strong gin pole @ 8' with existing winch, then have an additional footing/winch attached between the middle and upper guys (assuming you've got two sets of guys at this point) that is located much further away (20'??). you'll have to rely on the robust 8' gin to at least get the tower a few feet off the ground, but then you can crank the outer winch a small bit to unload the inner winch.... then run back and forth with a few cranks here, and a few cranks there...
NOT BEING AN ENGINEER:
i'd be happy seeing a 35' tower with 3" sch 40 slipped into 3.5" sch 40 with the system described above. With ( 8 ) guys. two sets of four. But you're shed is in the way, and that's a pretty big issue. can the upper guy on the shed side have it's footing WAY far away, so it clears the shed during the entire raising?
adam
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But you're shed is in the way, and that's a pretty big issue. can the upper guy on the shed side have it's footing WAY far away, so it clears the shed during the entire raising?
adam
I like that idea!
Disclaimer: I'm not an engineer either, I just play one in real life, shhh thats our little secret ;)
Kristi
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I too am concerned about my 1200 pound concrete base....
What if we scaled things down a bit...?
Say, a 3" square, 20ft long, 5/16 thick pipe
with a 2.5" square, 12ft long on top.
(That gives me upto 2 feet extra to bind them togeather)
With an 2.5" 8ft gin...
Remember, there will be a 60 pound bird on the end of this thing...
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My head is starting to hurt again.
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We are on the same schedual pard :D ;)
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I really need an answer... I am buying tomarrow...
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SF, in that picture with the cables attaching the winch with the chain parts I really hope those turn buckle ends are the solid type and not just bent hooks, turn buckle ends MUST be soild rings with clevises and pins NOT those threaded chain links, and those turn buckles look like the aluminum variety, THAT, is totally unacceptable.
Take the damn chain OUT and attach the cable directly to the gin, also remember "never saddle a dead horse" when you are assembling cable clamps.
And for Gods sake DON'T drill big holes through your mast, the gin pole simply MUST be 50% of the length of the tower or very close to it, sorry pard but that is the way the universe works and matmatics don't lie and mother nature don't like to be F'ed with, as you have already found out several times the hard way.
Go to yuotube and watch any number of the guyed tower videos going up, it's really pretty damn simple unless YOU make it hard.
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You want an answer? OK here is your answer, rip your WRONGLY placed winch anchor out of the ground, OR, leave it there and pour a new foundation out 50% the length of you tower, then go with the 3" sched 40 with the 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit and use 3" sched 40 for your gin. QED.
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the 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit is a greeat Idea...
However I have been asking around about this and none of the steel places sale anything smaller than a 20 ft stick... but I will shop around for a "specific 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit".
This is why I was hoping I could weld one inside the other.
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However I have been asking around about this and none of the steel places sale anything smaller than a 20 ft stick...
i assumed you'd have to buy two 20' sticks no matter what route you end up going. it's just how most steel is sold.
good eyes fab! yea, that turnbuckle looks to have a hook end on the top. not good if a little slack emerges.... then cable slips off from turnbuckle and failure!
you can try calling big chainlink fencing shops... sometimes they stock decent sized pipe and may have some off cuts??
adam
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then go with the 3" sched 40 with the 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit and use 3" sched 40 for your gin.
If I go with this plan what size and tinsle strength cables would I need...?
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This thread is as frustrating as trying to explain A Science Fiction Movie to my 82 year old mother ??? who is now age 3 in her second childhood. She just can't get the concept and never attempts to learn on her own. Just endless questions to which the answers are ignored unless they fit what she wants to hear. ;)
Thurmond
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Hi
Why are you using that carrabina on your turnbuckle. They are OK on a sailing boat but not on a guy wire, we did not even use those when I was climbing because of the failure rate. I would have fitted a D link.
You seem to go off at a tangent, you were asking about winch cableing, and snatch blocks, I pointed out you don't have any lift if your gin pole is level with the winch, you asked me to explane about the angle of the winch to the tower. You could use 6 in structural steel pipe of any shape if your winch is not in the right position, the cables are not at ther right angle, and the gin pole to mast length ratio is not correct, you are still looking for ways to hurt yourself.
Several people have asked if the Red delco arrived which you seem to have not answered.
Plan your mast, mark out and prepare your guy fixings, make sure the winch is in the right place to effectively and safely lift the tower with the turbine on top of it, and get someone to help with the lift who can watch from a different angle that your watching and stop you if things start getting out of shape.
The weight and size of your project is getting bigger and heavier not doing things properly will cost you more money or pain or worse, if someone gets hurt over here we just take them to hospital, if you get hurt you need medical insurance and insurance companies, wherever they are in the world, look for ways to get out of paying, and contibutory neglegence will be a clause they love.
Brian
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The 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit is NOT going to happen,
unless I want to drop $142 for 20ft of it. >:(
OK... let me spell out real clearly, what I am thinking of building here.
I am planning on building a 30ft gin tower With
one 20ft, 3"x3", 1/4" thick square structure pipe,
With one 12ft, 2.5"x2.5", 1/4" thick square structure pipe
(slid 1 OR 2 ft down inside the 3X3 and welded, making the 30ft mast)
With one 8ft Gin Pole made from 2.5"x2.5", 1/4 " thick square structure pipe
My base is 1200 pounds concrete with a 2x2ft, 1/2" steel plate
With two 4"x4" 5/16thick, 1.5ft long angle iron beams welded to it for the hinge.
If I am erecting this 30ft tower
weighing 288 pounds with an 8 ft gin pole weighing 57 pounds, (this includes a 7ft, 60pound turbine on the end) weighing a total of 344 pounds
how thick should my guy cables be?
I can bump up both square pipe sizes by .5 inchs wider, if you guys like...
but with the gin and the mast my weight will increase by 21 pounds (with turbine)
.
.
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This thread is as frustrating as trying to explain A Science Fiction Movie to my 82 year old mother ??? who is now age 3 in her second childhood. She just can't get the concept and never attempts to learn on her own. Just endless questions to which the answers are ignored unless they fit what she wants to hear. ;)
Thurmond
;D I understand what you're saying! To me, It's like the car crash in the other lane. you just gotta look!
I'm still pretty new here, only a couple years, but it seems to me a whole bunch of reading should have been done before any of this was started.
There's a lot of advice being suggested, but there may not be an understanding of Why?
Putting a working turbine on, and raising it on, a manufactured tower requires multiple engineering type disciplines.
I admire your tenacity, Steadfast, but I wish you would slow down, I fear your heading for another disaster.
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3 sections of rohn 25, the tilt base plate would really be easiest and safer. typical guy wire thickness is 1/8th or 3/16 unless you are going really high. That is for the guy wires NOT the gin pole cable that is going to have a heavier load on it.
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OK one step at a time... Your mast at the base is 4ins... Your ground pivot is 4ins high... unless you drill the mast very near the bottom and cut a tight radius on it you will not raise or lower it, because it will bind on your steel base plate. If you can picture that in your head and work out what you have to do to get round it you can move on.
As for what size cable you need for your winch, read back on here and the sums are there. Also can you see the gin pole weight does not count? Because it starts off in a vertical position and as it moves down it adds to the pull force of the winch.
If all the questions are answered for you without you being able to work things out for yourself should you get a sudden problem or things go wrong in the middle of the night, you will have to be able to sort it there and then.
Brian
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I would like to see him raise the tower with only a 60 lb bag of sand before he hangs the turbine on it. this way he can test his guy wire lengths and tension. the shed being in the way is going to be problematic at best. Dropping a bag of sand to the ground will not hurt anything if his anchor point gives way or he see that his guy wires are wrong.
as to the accepted policy of having a gin pole 50% of the tower height I have seen 50 foot utility poles fitted with double cross beams insulators and all the fittings and the transmission wires hanging on them raised by a 10 ft fixed gen pole with the butt of the utility pole against a shoe horn box fitted to the bore hole on the side of a mountain using nothing more than a 6 part block & tackle and 1" hemp rope passed through the point sheave. the anchor points often were trees or boulders/
get yourself a copy of the Army-Riggers-rigging handbook TM5-125 it was the bible for linemen & corp of engineers back in the day.
I'll have to fire up 1 of my old computers to see if I have it scanned
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Frank
That was with people who knew what they were doing, we have all done things that shouldn't be done but you can mentally go through the whole operation in your head you know where it can be a case of pull harder or run like hell. I would like to see him do a full size wood mock up of the bottom 3ft of his mast, a 4in high flange will not leave a lot of metal round the pivot bolt on the flange or the mast. I sugested a dummy run with a bag of sand, a dummy run first with nothing just to check the lengths and angles, it would pee me off if half way up the cable started spilling on the winch spool, or the guys finished about 6ins from the anchor point. If the steel ground plate is not level in all directions the mast will have a good lean at 30ft.
Brian
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Frank
That was with people who knew what they were doing, we have all done things that shouldn't be done but you can mentally go through the whole operation in your head you know where it can be a case of pull harder or run like hell. I would like to see him do a full size wood mock up of the bottom 3ft of his mast, a 4in high flange will not leave a lot of metal round the pivot bolt on the flange or the mast. I sugested a dummy run with a bag of sand, a dummy run first with nothing just to check the lengths and angles, it would pee me off if half way up the cable started spilling on the winch spool, or the guys finished about 6ins from the anchor point. If the steel ground plate is not level in all directions the mast will have a good lean at 30ft.
Brian
I guess it is because my company has to hire a crane on average of 20 times a week and some of my young engineers have less time in the field than a Mayfly, that I have to stress to them before I send them to watch over a pick of how easily things can go wrong & get someone killed when lifting large or odd shaped objects
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I really need an answer... I am buying tomarrow...
Don't rush yourself SF, it seems this is what gets you into trouble.
There's a reason - haste makes waste, and the tortoise beats the hare.
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Guys I understand why my gin should be 15 ft...and I agree...
But I MUST put my hope in Franks statement.
It is not stupidity or stuborness that makes me resist this 50% gin rule.
It was the original placement of my shed. (which back in the day my neighbor was cool with)
when I started I nievely assumed I was making a light system that (according to the county regs)
only needed to be attached to the shed at one 10 ft point. I know better now.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F522178_408073992546818_100000326622548_1315991_875615727_n.jpg&hash=f043bfbdaa5e2dfbafc997c23dc34181c3af3378)
Now, the foundation is poured!
The back leg of my winch stand is litterally ON THE PORPERTY LINE...
forcing my gin to be 8ft.
My neighbor is cool with this, but has made it clear, "not one inch over!"
Because he "may or may not want to build a chain link fence someday".
If you guys wanna come over to my place and physically dig up my 1200 pound concrete base, and move it 7ft deeper into my property, go for it.
I'll buy the beer and pizza... But I am not doing it...ALONE...
now, My Homebrew book shows photos of the gin being 30% of the height.
I measured the pictures to be sure...
.
.
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Could you take some more pipe and make triangle to the gin pole to increase the strength?
If it go's the the end of the gin pole wouldn't that help the stress on the gin pole?
I don't know, I am just asking.
Kenneth
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if you look at the picture above that is what I did...thinking the same thing...
I can do it again too... several times over...
God knows I have A LOT of SCRAP...now! :-[
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F522655_428285913858959_1504562130_n.jpg&hash=fbeb58bbc76406183af0edc4caf2a76cb3669f4d)
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So for the first time we find out why your winch is where it is. That though throws up a whole new can of worms. From your mast base to your boundry is say 8ft for the gin pole and and 2ft for your winch base, and 30ft for your tower, I won't mention the blades.... If your tower comes down in the wrong direction, 20ft of it can be on your neighbours property. Not Good for neighbour relations, especially if he is standing within that 20ft.
Again though you did not mention the comments I made about the pivot bearings and the mast not being able to pivot. There is no reason why you can't use a shorter gin pole it means you need a bigger pull to raise your mast. Because this is the first time you have done this and have a poor grasp of mechanics people are telling you how it should be done for safety, and to slow down and think things through.
Brian
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Kensue
The cables from the Gin pole to the mast make the triangle, the gin pole is just a way of changing the direction of the pull, if the winch was 20ft in the air you would not need a gin pole. Once the angle of the mast is more than about 30degs you don't need a gin pole. The gin pole prevents an over centre situation arising.
Brian
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Thanks.
I think I got it now.
Is the major stress on the upright when the vertical passes 45 degrees?
Kenneth
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go to my other build thread and see what happened to my 1st mast... and its foundation...
before I knew what a Gin pole was... :o
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In this situation the gin pole is fixed to the tower not fixed in the vertical position with a point sheave . So since the pull will always be on the gin pole all the way until the tower is vertical and there is no possibility of having both side guys in tension from ground to vertical. we need to think about a guy wire mounted on top of the shed left lose while the tower in laying down this guy will need to be rigged with a slack pull from a second location this will assist to keep the tower from falling sideways as it is being raised. additionally the guy wires opposite to the winch need to be adjusted so they become taught as the tower reaches vertical to prevent it from going past the vertical position.
set the gin pole @ about 75 degrees relative to the tower this will leave you with some distance from the winch when at full vertical. giving you space for the rigging of the snatch bloc/s
find the sketch since I did this in 2 d it does not show the front and shed side guys .[attach=1]
this is no different than stepping a mast on a small sail boat where you have to use the boom for the main sail as the gin pole a few ropes to help hold the slack out of the cables while standing it pull here slack off there go slow keep everything taught except for the lines over the bow .
I've watched an 84 year old man step a 44 ft mast by himself in 10 minutes.
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That 84 year old man had a clear understanding of what he was doing.
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Pink Floyd - One Slip Live at Omni Atlanta 1987
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHi46A9A5_w
The Dream Academy - Life In A Northern Town (1985)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBJRckv8ym8
JW
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That 84 year old man had a clear understanding of what he was doing.
my sight is getting clearer as i learn from you guys...
I need an answer to this, this morning, because by 10 am I should be buying steel:
Do I stick with the 3x3 and 2.5x2.5 at 344 pounds total weight
or
Do I go with 3.5x3.5 and 3x3 at 365 pounds total weight?
the reason I ask is because i dot want to break my foundation
which is this:
My base is 1200 pounds concrete with a 2x2ft, 1/2" steel plate
With two 4"x4" 5/16thick, 1.5ft long angle iron beams welded vertical to the plate to form the hinge.
Here again is the mast material breakdown:
I am planning on building a 30ft gin tower With
one 20ft, 3"x3", 1/4" thick square structure pipe,
With one 12ft, 2.5"x2.5", 1/4" thick square structure pipe
(slid 1 OR 2 ft down inside the 3X3 and welded, making the 30ft mast)
With one 8ft Gin Pole made from 2.5"x2.5", 1/4 " thick square structure pipe
weighing a total of 344 pounds (this includes a 7ft, 60 pound turbine on the end)
---or---
I can bump up both square pipe sizes, without breaking my foundation, to build my 30ft tower with
one 20ft, 3.5"x3.5", 1/4" thick square structure pipe,
With one 12ft, 3"x3", 1/4" thick square structure pipe
(slid 1 OR 2 ft down inside the 3.5X3.5 and welded, making the 30ft mast)
With one 8ft Gin Pole made from 3"x3", 1/4 " thick square structure pipe
weighing a total of 365 pounds (this includes a 7ft, 60 pound turbine on the end)
I would rather have the strength of bigger pipe.
but not at the expense of a busted foundation...
.
.
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BTW: Thank you for this Frank:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=146772.0;attach=5779;image)
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I can't believe I am getting dragged into this.. :)
Move your tower. You don't need a 1200 lb base with a tilt up tower. The guy wires take all the lateral forces and the base just supports the weight of the tower and turbine. I have a 40 foot tower and a 10 ft turbine on a 2'x2'x10" slab poured directly on grade. Took about six bags of concrete IIRC.
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Nah, that would be the right way to do it and too easy, this guy is all about the hard, wrong way to do it.......atleast the first time, then after the catastrophic trial run he may try the right way.
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Im going with the 3x3 20ft and 2.5x2.5 10ft.
Unless you guys suggest I go with the stronger/ heavier design..
Time is running out... I need that answer soon...
Your snarky comments are not answers.
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SF-
i don't think it is even a good time to even be buying pipe.
you have yet to answer many of the questions asked, and thus we don't really have a clear understanding of what you're doing.
can you get four guys close to the tower's top with a guy radius of 15'??
do you have a way to stabilize the tower (side to side) while raising?
do you understand why frank's drawing has the gin set at 75 degrees?
have you gotten non hooked turnbuckles?
have you put the snap links on the shelf to never be used again on your tower?
personally, i'd go with the thicker pipe for the existing (troublesome) location, or go for thinner if you move you're tower to a safer, easier location. the weight is a minimal difference.
adam
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If i under stand what has been said.
1. Move the tower base so you have a clear guy line to your tower.
2. Upgrade your attachment hardware.
Heavy pipe is better.
With the cost of the new steel what is the cost of 8 to 10 bags of quickcreat.
Steadfast take a deep breath. You have invested a lot of time and money in this project so know when to discard what won't work effectively and follow the diagram that's been posted.
The guys who have helped you to this point are not just throwing rocks but have hard won wisdom.
You are free to make the same mistakes they made at the cost of your hard earned money or you can listen to their advise.
Kenneth
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Hi
Instead off keep saying what should I be doing.. Get a can of marking paint, draw the outline for your base, and the placement of your guy fixings. Then tell us what your going to do. You have now had 8 pages of information on this thread, plus however many on your other thread.
You have the information to decide which pipe your going to use, and the ability to weld up a tower and guy fixings. A tower tall enough and close enough to come down across a neighbours property, if it doesn't upset your insurance company will sure upset his.
At the beginning you were told what would happen with what you were trying to do, and you took a load of crap for it, but you stuck it out and seem to learn from it. You now have a turbine which is heavy and capable of producing real power, if the wind blows hard enough to make it generate, there is a lot of mechanicle power going to be dissipated into the mast, not to mention the gyroscopic forces when it yaws. If your guy wires are not set properly and securely it will fail, it may not bend it will just come down, and remember it will still be vibrating and turning until it hits the ground. Your 5/16 by 4 in angle will not stop it going sideways if that is the way the forces are acting on it.
Your not off grid and dependent on the power so what is the problem with a bit of a delay to do it safely. once it's up apart from maintainance it could be up for years.
The information is on this site, read, read, read, then plan and follow the plan.
Brian.
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Steadfast, I have a customer here in town that has over-runs from a solar panel job, the material is 6" Dia. ASTM 500 SCH 40 Pipe, it has been hot dipped galvanized inside and out. He has 16pcs at 50' and wants $8.50/foot, you could buy 1 pc or the lot. I plan on getting 3 pcs(2 for towers and a 3rd to cut in half to make the gin poles) from him in the very near future as I will be moving to a property with enough room to put up 2 turbines in the next couple of months. I am in Pa. and it might be too far of a drive for you, but I figured I'd throw it out there. If I have violated any advertising rules I apologize, just trying to help. Thanks, Truckman
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Im going with the 3x3 20ft and 2.5x2.5 10ft.
Unless you guys suggest I go with the stronger/ heavier design..
Time is running out... I need that answer soon...
Your snarky comments are not answers.
If you would quit being so GD stupid you wouldn't get snarky answers, man up, saddle up, and do it right boy.
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Please be gentle(r): even if you think the OP is being an idiot he is at liberty to be one if he wishes, so let us all try to remain civil.
No I don't want him to hurt himself either, but I am still also largely ignorant on wind and have been learning from this thread, and I think he has been too. And he is not yet the grumpy old curmudgeon that some of the rest of us have become...
Rgds
Damon
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I had to Goo Snarky:
Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse. Origin: Snark="snide remark".
Evelyn always called attention to the proverbial pink elephant in the room with her snarky comments.
Evelyn has mood swings .
Snarking and snorkeling with Evelyn's moody pink elephant
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I have to keep telling myself that this will be stickied so any new know nothing newbie can be referred to it and learn every possible mistake a newbie can make, the biggest mistakes here being hoodwinked by a feebay carpet bagger and not putting all the money spent so far into solar. fabricator aka the thread grumpy old curmudgeon.
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Hi
Whatever the comments "Snarky", "Sarcastic", or what ever, most of them are accurate and so far the predictions are coming true, and I tend to aggree with fabricator and a number of others.
Plus it has now been over a week since the last mention of the red wonder turbine, or did I not read all the posts thoroughly enough?
Brian.
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Several people have asked if the Red delco arrived which you seem to have not answered.
He keeps avoiding this question. I guess he hasn't grown a pair to publically admit he was wrong....shame...
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I cant see why this matters... He hasnt even got a tower erected at this point...
Unless you guys have an expectation of power in watts at a given turbine shaft speed.
JW
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Im going to say something here.
I have followed this thread since before and the "lightweight" one two.
I have to admit, erecting a "tower" with guy wires and all is a bit daughting, I wouldnt try it on my land because you need to be like 90 feet up and $#|+.
I think you guys energies would be better spent advising SF to go with a VAWT... He could have a 40ft "free-standing platform" and could still use Chris's generator, as what I understood is had a "low" cut-in speed. He just needs an intermittant bearing to support some VAWT blades and such...
I think SF would do better in that arrangement and would actually have some fun experimenting with different blade configurations for a VAWT...
The ridicule here is pretty bad. If we cant do it one way "why cant we do it the other way"?
JW
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Look, if SF built the platform based on wood moving pallets, he could make a stable structure based on wood with like a 6 foot diameter (square 6x6) he could throw a VAWT up there or even a HAWT.
I just think with what his neighbor said about the property line, he would do better with a free standing platform instead of a mast.
JW
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Okay folks as a GM I am going now for time being everyone NOT helping to NOT post snide remarks further
SF has endured these remarks from people actually trying actively help ; these people as exempt
Anyothers adding snide remarks will be dealt with directly and swiftly.
Don't like it? Stuff!
Warrior do not post like this ! period ! its not helpful and I've received too admin reports to put up with anymore of them.
Bruce S
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Chris Daughtry - Home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUFhfp46zc
jw
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Just checking in on this - been gone for a couple days.
It appears Steadfast needs a heavier duty tower, and he don't have room to raise a heavier tower. That short of a gin is going to be a challenge even with a 30 foot tower, once you put some weight into the tower.
I learned some things here I didn't know before (or never paid attention to) - the tower needs to be moved to a more suitable location rather than on the end of that shed. That shed is pretty much useless as an anchor, or pull point, for any sort of tower anyway. All along I assumed he was raising a guyed tower and never thought for an instant about trying to raise a pipe tower with no side guys! Never in my wildest dreams imagined anybody even trying it.
Somebody mentioned putting up a couple sections of Rohn 25G and this would work fine as a free-standing tower, but it's going to take a decent sized hole and a redi-mix truck to fill it because you're not going to want to mix the amount bag crete a free-standing tower will take in the base. And it means climbing the tower and hoisting everything to the top and assembling the turbine piece by piece on the stub - unless you want to hire a crane or boom truck to put it up there.
You can get cranes - this is our Jacobs turbine on it's way to the top. But notice that dude hanging off the side of that SSV tower 90 feet in the air? Guess who that is? Yep - BTDT. And it ain't cheap with cranes at $300 to stick in the key in the switch and $650 an hour once the engine starts. And it ain't fun trying to line up the bolt holes on the head with a 2,600 lb turbine dangling on a wire rope 90 feet in the air.
[attach=1]
This thread is a lesson that there's only one way to do things with wind power - the right way. Which is usually expensive. But the wrong way is more expensive yet. Solar is easy and cheap by comparison.
--
Chris
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Im going to say something here.
I have followed this thread since before and the "lightweight" one two.
I have to admit, erecting a "tower" with guy wires and all is a bit daughting, I wouldnt try it on my land because you need to be like 90 feet up and $#|+.
I think you guys energies would be better spent advising SF to go with a VAWT... He could have a 40ft "free-standing platform" and could still use Chris's generator, as what I understood is had a "low" cut-in speed. He just needs an intermittant bearing to support some VAWT blades and such...
I think SF would do better in that arrangement and would actually have some fun experimenting with different blade configurations for a VAWT...
The ridicule here is pretty bad. If we cant do it one way "why cant we do it the other way"?
JW
Because it's hogwash, that's why, I would never under ANY circumstances recommend a VAWT as they are as a general rule a complete waste of money, money better spent on more solar.
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Rohn 25 is not free standing tower. Designed to be guyed/house bracketed. Advantage is the stiffness with a load on top. I had 30 feet house bracketed with a 45 pound antenna/rotator load that I regularly tilted down for maintenance.
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Rohn 25 is not free standing tower
That's right- I'm laying mine horizontal with T-channel welded to it to act as a crane track over the dam to set the hydroturbine
(off topic, sorry)
Turtle
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I have been reading these posting for some time now,they are going wild! I put up a 35' three leg TV tower with the first 20'
a four legged on a 4'x4'x4' base and lot's of re-rod . I do not have a wind gen. but i do have a air pumper free standing, it has 8 fins 7' diam. The head is 84# and things work just find even in 60m/h wind( it is the one in my diary aeration) my gin poll is 20' with a 1/2" life line at 90 deg. hoked to my tractor . Not that a wench wouldn't work and i can raise and lower it by myself with the 4' hing it's stable.
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WINCH.
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YES, sorry!
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Personally, I'd rather have a wench help me with raising and lowering. Alas, I am stuck with a come-a-long.
Jonathan
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I knew this cute little wench once she had all of the qualities of a divorce for a married man of a broken heart for a single man. Flaming red hair Opalline green eyes O h! uh never mind
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Well!!
That's blown the theory that turbine builders were all good clean living guys. I wonder if the solar guys are any cleaner living???
Brian
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Possibly better tanned and with fewer impact injuries and splinters...
Rgds
Damon
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That's blown the theory that turbine builders were all good clean living guys.
Who ever said turbine builders are good clean living guys in the first place? We're usually covered with grease from using our clothes to wipe our hands on. If we got a shirt it's got holes in it - burned by welder sparks. If we don't have a shirt we got sunburn from welding. And most of us drink a lot of beer because you can't put up a turbine tower when it's 100 degrees in the shade without it.
--
Chris
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WINCH.
stop calling wildbill a "winch"... he he he...
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To bring these ideas back around to the project . There's a light weight Turbine in the works in a low wind area . Probably solid density at at 60 feet or better . The builder has gone through several changes to get to this phase of the build bigger blades, all the Ebay Jive Chickens ,Brave spirited Chippy forums , . Leading up to the placement of the Genset up and charging .
It's a rich heritage we have in this procedure. Grinding our way to the user phase . Caught up in this Life golf . Through the lowfrequency traps . down the fairway to the green . I say it's not going to change soon but in the interim we are here and stabbing at the real world.
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That's blown the theory that turbine builders were all good clean living guys.
Who ever said turbine builders are good clean living guys in the first place? We're usually covered with grease from using our clothes to wipe our hands on. If we got a shirt it's got holes in it - burned by welder sparks. If we don't have a shirt we got sunburn from welding. And most of us drink a lot of beer because you can't put up a turbine tower when it's 100 degrees in the shade without it.
--
Chris
I got a pair of clog type slip on slipper things they are leather ish, the things have welding splatter burns, dried on epoxy paint and various types of hardened resin on em. If clean living includes no beer and no swearing, that AINT real life turbine builders, if the had a reality show about building turbines it'd be just like American Chopper or Jesse James, every third word would be bleeped out.
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Sorry that I have not posted much over the past week.
but, All Im doing is amasing parts right now... (yawn)
Because none of you chose to directly answer my pipe size question: :(
I chose to build the 30ft gin tower With
one 20ft, 3"x3", 1/4" thick square structure pipe,
With one 12ft, 2.5"x2.5", 1/4" thick square structure pipe
(slid 1 OR 2 ft down inside the 3X3 and welded, making the 30ft mast)
With one 8ft Gin Pole made from 2.5"x2.5", 1/4 " thick square structure pipe
weighing a total of 344 pounds (this includes a 7ft, 60 pound turbine on the end)
BTW:
Just wait until you see how I solved the "guy line through the shed" problem
which you guys have been complaining about... ;D
This Saturday we will start building the 3rd, and final, mast and posting photos.
I am hopeful that we can raise the new mast (alone) by Saturday evening,
but Sunday is more likely.
Once it is successful, on the following July 1st weekend,
I will have choose which turbine (LBird or HBird) to start testing first,
because both will take the same amount of time to complete and fly.
My wife said I should fly the HBird first, because you guys delivered it to me first...
(I see her point)
Im thinking it might be interesting to go from small to big...
(and to see the increase of output)
What do you guys think I should do?
.
.
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I may have missed something???
Did you get the redelco?
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The way I understand it, Steadfast has not seen the ReDelco yet. He's got a promise that it's "going out in the mail". But it's an experimental one, not the one he ordered. We've hear rumors about the experimental one having high-time-warp elliptical Vortex Magnets, Cascading Electrical Waves, and probably some Top Secret stuff we don't know about yet. I would think it would have white racing stripes too.
We'll know for sure when (if) he gets it.
--
Chris
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Because none of you chose to directly answer my pipe size question: :(
OK, I'll answer directly. That structural tubing you got will work fine. With an 8 foot gin it will be hard to raise. I could work out the pull force on the winch if you really need to know. But it will be big. Real Big. Test it with a dummy weight on it and it if works you're good to go.
You could have what was known in the Middle Ages as a trebuchet. So just observe safety practices when test raising it because if the winch or winch mounting lets go you'll want to be clear of the launch trajectory when it gets slung into low earth orbit.
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Chris
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racing stripes.....
ooooo...aaaah...oooohhhh :o
but seriously:
Tony made it clear that the PMA will be painted
with pearlized, heat set, candy apple red, car paint and clearcoat!
I kid you not!
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Because none of you chose to directly answer my pipe size question: :(
OK, I'll answer directly. That structural tubing you got will work fine. With an 8 foot gin it will be hard to raise. I could work out the pull force on the winch if you really need to know. But it will be big. Real Big. Test it with a dummy weight on it and it if works you're good to go.
You could have what was known in the Middle Ages as a trebuchet. So just observe safety practices when test raising it because if the winch or winch mounting lets go you'll want to be clear of the launch trajectory when it gets slung into low earth orbit.
--
Chris
he he he...
Shaaawooo, Thanks for your confirmation Chris! (I needed that)
I too think it should work out ok... here is why:
1st:
I am running with Franks design:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=146772.0;attach=5779;image)
2nd:
I have a massive 3000# winch (2X the siz of the old one)
with 50ft of 5/16 cable running through 2 snatch blocks.
I will be guying it with 1/4 cable, in two places...
(although I could go with 3 guys between the gin to the mast if you suggest it)
.
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Soooo, which bird should I fly first?
My wife said I should fly the HBird first, because you guys delivered it to me first...
(I see her point)
Im thinking it might be interesting to go from small to big...
(and to see the increase of output)
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Hi
If you put the big turbine up first, it has a predictable performance and you will have a benchmark for the delco to match. Did you get something to measure wind speed? It would also be interesting to compare your blades, lift versus drag.
Did you get a pully block to reduce the effort on the winch?
Brian
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Snatch blocks are pullys
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1st:
I am running with Franks design:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=146772.0;attach=5779;image)
2nd:
I have a massive 3000# winch (2X the siz of the old one)
with 50ft of 5/16 cable running through 2 snatch blocks.
I will be guying it with 1/4 cable, in two places...
(although I could go with 3 guys between the gin to the mast if you suggest it)
.
.
SF I only drew 2 guys from the mast to the anchor points and on the gin for simplistically of the drawing explanation.
my main point was to have the tower resting on something to hold the bitd off of the ground when you started up with it also the higher off of the ground you start the lower the loading forces will be in the winch mount. every degree above horizontal you have before starting to winch the lower the load becomes.
the reason the gin is guyed in the forward position is for 2 reasons !st it is slightly forward of 90 to place it in the optimum starting arc in a perfect world in would be rigid mounted to the ground at vertical and remain there throughout the pull allowing the top guy to lift away for it as the pole rose above critical.
However doing it that way would mean you would not have secondary support/s while lifting.
this is why so many pull directly on the gin pole also to take advantage of a follow through fulcrum.
ON super tall towers there is yet another method that incorporates multiple gins in with active compounding
the short gin would be a few degrees forward the 2nd 2rd 4rh ??? all would be laying on the tower at the start and would each raise to a degree relative to where the next would wind up and so on until the tower started to raise
as the tower gets higher these secondary gins change their relative angles never causing the live line to venture past a straight line pull.
you don;t need anything like that . however there are certain merits to 1 secondary gin that would be 15 to 18 feet tall that started out at around 15 to 20 degrees forward of vertical providing you were using 2 winches.
still it would add complexity.
IN your situation your most critical area is going to be maintaining tension on the guys to be located on the shed side
you say you have this worked out and that's great just remember once the tower lifts off it;s rest it wants to try and go to the left or right and will if not held on center-line of the pull at all times.
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Things seem to be rolling along just fine here :) thanks for all the hard work guys :)
Primitive radio gods - Standing outside a Broken Phone Booth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1piLRStP7xE
JW
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You want an answer? OK here is your answer, rip your WRONGLY placed winch anchor out of the ground, OR, leave it there and pour a new foundation out 50% the length of you tower, then go with the 3" sched 40 with the 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit and use 3" sched 40 for your gin. QED.
WTF are you talking about nobody wants to directly answer? this was three or four pages ago.
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1/4in wall thick is about sch80
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Nuh uh, schedual 40.
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((+_+)) (?_?) >:[ >:/ <:-| @>-->--
Don't know how to say it any clearer than that!
Thurmond
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What is that Mayan?
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What is that Mayan?
Emoticonish, both Eastern and Western.
Thurmond
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SF-
i'd like to hear/see details of how you figured out the shed side guy line. will it maintain slight tension on the tower during the entire raising process?
adam
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The shed guy is anchored 8ft up, around a 2ft thick tree; giving the guy just enough clearance to just slip past the front corner of the shed's roof as the mast goes up. And once up the guy (at its lowest point) floats about 2 ft above the shed roof's highest point.
Both right and left guys are anchored to thick trees.
To maintain tension on the right and left guys during the raise I am devising some sort of detachable cable with a handle that is long enough to attach to the guy, wrap around a tree, and slowly be walked out by a person on each guy as I crank the winch.
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I think that means if you need to pee your not shopping fast enough
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SF it would seem that you have worked out several issues.
just one more word of advice which I feel would be backed by most everyone who has ever raised a tower or other device such as this.
Do yourself a favor before you attach the bird find some heavy weight like a few sand bags at least as heavy as the bird but preferably 1 1/2 times as heavy raise the tower through the critical transition point at least 45 to 60 degrees, higher if you note any unusual activity then lower and make any adjustments you need before raising the actual bird.
it takes a little time but you know better than anyone else what it could cost you
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if the side and back guys are attached and left just slightly loose you don't need to worry too much about them apart from keeping an eye on them during the raise to make sure they are not getting too loose or tight, the guy on the shed side however will take constant monitoring and adjusting as it is on a different plane.
Don't know if anybody's mentioned it but the side and back guys should all be a the exact same level.
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GOOD ADVICE...THANKS
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Also if you put your side guy anchors about a foot (from the base) towards the tower when it is lying down and make your side guys relatively snug when it is raised to vertical they will automatically come into tension when the tower is perpendicular, so your gin guys will be already tensioned your side guys will be close to the right tension, all you'll need to do is tension your back guys.
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I don't know why you are trying to raise your turbine parallel to the the back of your shed, when you have a shed to use as A free standing gin pole.
The shed is quite a bit taller than the gin pole you are trying to use.
Turn the pole around 45 degrees and make two pulleys for the cable that fit on each end of the ridge of the shed.
Mount the lifting winch in front of the shed. When lifting the cable will come clear of the shed when the pole get's high enough.
Forget all that nonsense that you need snatch blocks. Your 3000 lbs winch is plenty strong to do the job in single line pull.
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ON your mark.
Get set.
GO.
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on the shed side cable,dont end 8 feet up in the air.place a snatch block there.run the cable threw the block and down the tree too a second winch.much better control this way.
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So, how about a picture of the redelco?
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I hear ya... but.... I Gotta take delivery first...
Perhaps today... ::)
When I do take those photos I will post them on the other thread...
this one is for the HBird...
Well.... today is the day we build the final tower.... wish me luck... or pray for me...
Ill post pictures tonight...
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HI
I have no doubt the build will be uneventfull, and from seeing previous work the welding will be tidy and safe.
I hope the raising and tethering is as uneventfull, it is unlikely your going to bend this one. If it comes down it will be as straight as when you made it. Can't say the same if it hits anything on the way.
Try a dry dummy run to sort out your guy lengths and the way to do it, then with a bag of sand the weight of the big turbine on the top, and if posible a few extra hands for the first live lift.
Good luck with it.
Brian
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Today's Work
Today was HOT... as in 98F with 90% humidity hot.
we could have done twice the work but the Sun beat the crap out of us.
we spent half the time panting and trying not to pass out.
but here are the photos of what was done.
Setting up to slide the 2.5X2.5 square pipe inside the 3X3 square pipe to build the main shaft of my wind turbine mast.
The stupid internal weld bead made this an exhausting process. But it also made things increadibly tight.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F533373_435282239825993_1142602644_n.jpg&hash=c0110ece941dc00bcafaebbdf455efcd77519449)
Anyone for massive pipe sledge hammer "Putt putt"?
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F599378_435283493159201_1873916127_n.jpg&hash=4420d9e33df984d473722f6ddb8c198dba4f5447)
The bolts I entend to use for the hinge. Notice the white hot sun bleaching out the photo...nice!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F484306_435284756492408_451470922_n.jpg&hash=6980b78849d1087d61ce819f4594692689908911)
random guy wire parts.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F318027_435291373158413_543258574_n.jpg&hash=02f9930b633de81850b75ed3a31404d08d2e825d)
The tip of the mast. look familiar? It was taken from the failed one.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F8085_435286393158911_1764015064_n.jpg&hash=ee76c50acf76e7371ccc529a4cf6c82a869c20cd)
Welds binding the two pipes together.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F533437_435287273158823_809940906_n.jpg&hash=c3b9deefe5af4a6deee507fffa1333b17c1a2ca5)
Pipe waiting to become a gin pole.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F532816_435287696492114_416868809_n.jpg&hash=7610911a0ae1bfc7d2defb351b4a8b7b33e210fe)
New steel hinge and base
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F581225_435288296492054_1252816861_n.jpg&hash=28d30e24b7e98fb22e9931a5803b19ff2144612f)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F165801_435289023158648_495406631_n.jpg&hash=280faa0bec890443b19c6f0a6af8d75e7b705b06)
And now for photos of the scap from the dead mast:
Removing the wreckage took ond third of the day... I could not beleive it:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F282786_435293196491564_2115920428_n.jpg&hash=e539bf98d3026111d7db4e47e256bba85c6792fd)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F252653_435291553158395_457524585_n.jpg&hash=86cddf170a9b805f6fb4dae532c5e78c6a30adb6)
And No... before you ask:
I did not recieve the delivery of the glorious red PMA today...
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Take those non locking carabiners on the table and use em for a key chain, they have absolutely NO place on a guyed tower. for one thing they only have itty bitty pins in them and the locking ends dont have much surface area, under stress the pin will break or they will deform enough to open up and straighten out enough to come apart.
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Take those non locking carabiners on the table and use em for a key chain, they have absolutely NO place on a guyed tower. for one thing they only have itty bitty pins in them and the locking ends dont have much surface area, under stress the pin will break or they will deform enough to open up and straighten out enough to come apart.
I was going to say that I have one of those that I use to clip my keys to my belt loop
about all they are good for unless he is planning to use them for hand held tag lines
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Hi
That's better, the two pies are welded properly with holes drilled in the outer pipe and welded to reduce the chance of the weld at the joint being flexed. I told you several posts ago to scrap the carrabinas, and replace them with D links. They will only handle contant pressure not snatching like your going to get with a guy wire, once the pin fails or they start to straighten out they fail rapidly. I would not even use screw gate carrabinas on a guy wire and they are stamped and rated at 5000lbs.
Get you hinge as low as you can on the mast and base and don't forget to load the mast with a sand bag or something of equal or greater weight than the heaviest turbine your going to put on it. As you start your lift keep your eye on the base to make sure there is no movement anywhere.
It's looking much better this time though and your only getting comments on some of the tethering kit not the build itself.
Brian
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Take those non locking carabiners on the table and use em for a key chain, they have absolutely NO place on a guyed tower. for one thing they only have itty bitty pins in them and the locking ends dont have much surface area, under stress the pin will break or they will deform enough to open up and straighten out enough to come apart.
yes sir...
In fact, those are the ones I pulled out of the exsisting guy line array...
While savaging good parts from the wreckage of the failed tower.
I had to put them somewhere, they just ended up on the table.
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B^>
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Take those non locking carabiners on the table and use em for a key chain, they have absolutely NO place on a guyed tower. for one thing they only have itty bitty pins in them and the locking ends dont have much surface area, under stress the pin will break or they will deform enough to open up and straighten out enough to come apart.
yes sir...
In fact, those are the ones I pulled out of the exsisting guy line array...
While savaging good parts from the wreckage of the failed tower.
I had to put them somewhere, they just ended up on the table.
Good answer. ;)
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One thing I noticed from your Pictures is the lack of glass in the stator . You can lay some gauze around the outside as thick as you want and some aluminum to carry the vibration at the bolt holes . I think they used filler and no gauze .
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They work well for clipping water bottles to your day pack... put weight on one? Friend tossed one on my dogs tie out chain. I told her it would not last. Took him 5 minutes to snap it ;D
Take those non locking carabiners on the table and use em for a key chain, they have absolutely NO place on a guyed tower. for one thing they only have itty bitty pins in them and the locking ends dont have much surface area, under stress the pin will break or they will deform enough to open up and straighten out enough to come apart.
I was going to say that I have one of those that I use to clip my keys to my belt loop
about all they are good for unless he is planning to use them for hand held tag lines
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alot of hard work and good progress.how do you plan to attach the guy wires to the tower.bolts through the tower crowd the wires runing down the inside.i like to weld single links of chain to the tower and then run the cable thimbles through them
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alot of hard work and good progress.how do you plan to attach the guy wires to the tower.bolts through the tower crowd the wires runing down the inside.i like to weld single links of chain to the tower and then run the cable thimbles through them
to answer your timely question...
Sunday's Work:
Sunday was SLOW... not because of the heat, but because of the size and thickness of the steel.
We had to drill our 1" holes in the new base and the mast, and it took 3 hours just to drill 6 holes!
Easch hole had to be drilled out 5 times by ever larger bits
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F598706_437459106274973_1978018122_n.jpg&hash=4606264e4a587d9ba31245069922e8c0ac1731c5)
Some welders will do anything NOT to have their picture taken...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F380709_437458096275074_2053415416_n.jpg&hash=27367fc8f940f4a4384a841da6a9e34aa8ab0544)
Look at the pretty welds!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F540959_437458599608357_1243652883_n.jpg&hash=90a782d2033f08b0c97f33c05502e7e09ddbaf2a)
new base and hinge
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F527908_437458932941657_2030732297_n.jpg&hash=976745c3fa52c9daa4245141f14be56080311bc0)
Now to answer that queestion:
Adding the guy line mast anchor plates
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F397673_437459272941623_1395120692_n.jpg&hash=9fddb44ccc4e1e33c613d250c85a0a4f4233bfd5)
you can get these plates at agri supply
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F180295_437459416274942_1143874928_n.jpg&hash=58467897472796784822d9ff71166d549d8927d9)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F205382_437461482941402_1977534658_n.jpg&hash=43fb56be72d4d5b85b706a08738983b3ee476eb6)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F205415_437462569607960_49820484_n.jpg&hash=5d687194ad5992bd407613914b73d6ccd5525ba9)
We even added a small pipe which my spinning wind meter attaches too.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F181383_437461162941434_954511031_n.jpg&hash=1f7e71eddc4e6c6252f8b698c4619abc4b9e8e8e)
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looking at the welds on the key hole pad eyes it looks like you are welding with either 6013 or 7014
I don't see any gusseting on the backside of the hinge/ base angles . It is hard to see but the welds on the angles look better than the pad eyes
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Those angles don't need any gussets, they just keep the base in place while raising and and sliding around when it's up, the welds on the plates aint as pretty as the on the base angles but they look adequate.
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Hi
Why do you have two of the guy brackets 180degs to each other, if your only having three guys the should be 120 degs. On square pipe you mount the brackets at an angle but when viewed from above should be at 120 degs.
Also do you not have a hole saw? I used to drill lots of holes that size and larger in cabinettes and through steelwork for cable glands. Slow speed lots of coolant, light oil or parrafin, and press as hard as you can rocking the drill as you go to clear the swarf.
Brian
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Tail Decor!!!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F251922_438050659549151_1968263659_n.jpg&hash=ef7c1a3ce26630584f5b30b39a2ee96a06775506)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F552489_438050979549119_1362681135_n.jpg&hash=b27ba9eec7893465288f8e7140ef6c2d11ddcb88)
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bah, You Should have put the "Little" Chicken Hawk from the Fog Horn Leg Horn cartoon on the LBird and Fog Horn Leeg Horn himself on the HBird... :P
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We started working today around 5am to beat the heat alert put out for NC today
We busted tail and took names but around 12:30 the heat hit hard as the tempriture jumped to 105 degrees in 30 minutes. I was going to document the work in pictures but the heat was so sudden and oppressive that I shot a video instead...
I would show it too you now... but... I am sitting in a burgerking waiting for my teen age daughter to get off work. I did however make sure it was activly uploading to you tube before I left the house... Soooooo, when I get home, you guys will see what we "got done"...
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here is the video....
At the end when I say "this will go the way of all flesh" I am referring to the arm on the shed
not the concrete foundation...
Just sayn
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105? it doesn't cool off to 105 until way after dark 30 here but then again I don't have to put up with humidity.
But since it has been 120 to 130 in my office because the AC let out the magic smoke a month ago on a really hot day I don't spend much time there.
good luck on getting the Hbird going
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so far everything is looking good SF nice to seethe solar panel grabbing some rays
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SF-
looks pretty darn good! you're making leaps and bounds with your tower rig!
just a few observation... make sure you wrap some bailing wire ect. around those screw in shackles. they can easily unscrew themselves as the tower starts vibing from energy production.
also, the screw links where your raising guys meet your tower should have some medium strength loctite on the threads... or just remove them, and run the guys straight to the tower.
basically anything that can be removed, should be, less potential points of failure, and any needed hardwear that doesn't have a clevis/safety clip/means to keep it tight, should have something.
i liked the chicken video as well!
adam
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just a few observation... make sure you wrap some bailing wire ect. around those screw in shackles. they can easily unscrew themselves as the tower starts vibing from energy production.
And make it stainless baling wire- I know of a 10kW bergey mill lost due to a non-stainless cotter pin that failed after a few years in the weather.
After all, let's be optimistic that your mill will be up for a while...
Turtle, still at it
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clevis pins,screw-in or cottered,are notorious for working out just when you get comfortable with the set-up.i say get it broke in good and go back and tack-weld everyone of them.
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On Saturday night I painted the mast black, and got eaten alive by mosquitoes too!
Todays blazing weather drudgery made yesterday look easy!
But here are the results for SUNDAY!
Because we were looking at another 100+ degree 90% humidity day,
I once again woke up at 4AM and hit the back yard by 5am.
yes, :-[ I skipped Church...
but that would not have happened had the weather not been so threatening and the Task so daunting!
I strapped the mast to 2 moving dollys and started to work on the HBird
while I waited for my good and faithful father in law to arrive.
I clamped some thin boards to either side of the bent turbine hub to use as a lever.
and tugged this way and that until I got things straightened out.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F556997_441238985896985_1707708154_n.jpg&hash=b41d372f7be2fabcae07b34d1d627112072408e2)
when the father in law (FIL) showed up, we installed the winch.
We had to drive all the way to Lowes to get the bolts and waste 1 hour, but it is done.
By the time we made it back, the sun was blasting at 95 degrees. at 9AM.. :o
so, we started to moved the mast into place with a dolly strapped to each end
and managed to Semi-Truck park it at the new Hinge, which I also painted black earlier that morning.
we were so wiped out and embarrassed by the raw jerry-rigging of it all, that we did not get any pictures of that exhausting fiasco.
once I hooked up the block and tackle to the winch and almost passed out (seriously) in the sun doing it
we took a long gator-aid and water break, and began the first test lift.
You will notice the LBird snuck onto the mast to function as a "fancy wind sock".
Because the new winch was laughing at the weight, we stopped at this point
to repaint the mast where the dollys tore up my awesome paint job.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F376954_441239419230275_26266552_n.jpg&hash=5be644931a7aefebc38bb6f6401f40288ec997b0)
For you Safety nuts: once we resumed. my FIL used a tree for tension on the guy cable on one side,
and my handy neighbor did the same on the other side,(both wore Gloves) while i cranked the winch FOREVER.
no one was within 15 feet of being under the mast as it went up.
The winch stand didnt even shutter once! The winch mocked this tiny challenge to its SHEER POWER.
The two Snatchblocks worked flawlessly. The foundation was silent strong and solid.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F181358_441239769230240_360626059_n.jpg&hash=8fc643f1d2420be918256f981869add666d82e47)
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These two photos are of the guys anchored 6ft up a tree and clearing the sheds roof.
Did I mention that the normally exasperating chore of adjusting guys is a total pain in the butt in 100+ weather
when you just want to quit and go inside. and get the burning sweat out of your eyes.
no?? well... it IS!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F544533_441240472563503_555224640_n.jpg&hash=f183f415e194332e11d269004448b24ecdc21256)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F406164_441240619230155_502882186_n.jpg&hash=7680fb2bf670b9aff0bec05ac785527812b765bb)
And two more goovy pictures of the mast in test raise mode.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F205346_441240939230123_1816911393_n.jpg&hash=d30d5514e52d892179cbad025b097d6549a9d37e)(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F483194_441241095896774_311803636_n.jpg&hash=be1680fa8e93ab84cc1eb0b29658a6776a5ea481)
Next week end, perhaps on the 4th of July,we will finish repairing the HBird and get it FLYING!
Flying a wind turbine for the first time! What a great way to celebrate our Glorious country's Independence Day!
"who needs fireworks!? Just look at that Turbine spin!"
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NICE WORK SF!!!
intersting guy set up, but it seems to work great! it must feel really good to have made some trouble free progress!
does the wife seem happier?
kudos!
adam
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I see the guy wires for either side, and the guy wires going to the gin pole/winch, but no guy wire going in the fourth direction? Whats up with that?
Kristi
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Yes... she was very happy to see some light at the end othis tunnel....
Or some turbine at the top of a working tower...
Me.. I find it good to be on the working side of physics... for once!
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I see the guy wires for either side, and the guy wires going to the gin pole/winch, but no guy wire going in the fourth direction? Whats up with that?
Kristi
because there is no fouth direction....?
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I see the guy wires for either side, and the guy wires going to the gin pole/winch, but no guy wire going in the fourth direction? Whats up with that?
Kristi
because there is no fouth direction....?
ARE you saying then that you have the set up on a 120Degree split? 0/120/240?
or are you at 0/90/270 without a 180 ?
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Hi
Well done it looks good, only a couple of comments. You have three brackets for the guys, not a problem but, two of the brackets have a bending moment on two oh them. It would have been better to have welded the brackets, which don't continue the direction of ther guy wires, should have been welded on at an angle so the loading puts the welding under tension not bending loads. If the blades are on the turbine will they clear the top guys, and a quicky put a dab of weld on the threads on the turnbuckles to stop any chance of screwing right out.
It looks tidy and plumb in the photograph. Your weather made our news broadcasts, apparently one in three people in the US is experiencing the worst heatwave since the 30s, and there are a couple of million people without power after the storms that go with it. Our weather is the oposite in the east we have had storms like you get in the mid west, and we are being rained on all the time. I sprayed a hew hood for my motor home to had to spend a day and a half flatting it back down again. So get the turbine flying ready....
Brian
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Once again though, now that you know your procedure that you must use to stand the tower. Before you actually raise the Hbird . Raise a 60 pound sack of dirt at least to 60 degrees.
on your turn buckles after you get your tower in its final life long position . thread a piece of your 1/4" cable through the guy thimble then through the buckle body then through the opposite end then use a cable clip to secure the 2 ends to each other. this is easy to remove when you need to adjust your turnbuckles and at the same time will insure they can not unscrew or should one break you still have a semi secured guy wire.
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I see the guy wires for either side, and the guy wires going to the gin pole/winch, but no guy wire going in the fourth direction? Whats up with that?
Kristi
because there is no fouth direction....?
ARE you saying then that you have the set up on a 120Degree split? 0/120/240?
or are you at 0/90/270 without a 180 ?
trangle...
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Is the triangle equilateral or did you go with something less than equal because the tower is located eight feet from the property line?
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Is the triangle equilateral or did you go with something less than equal because the tower is located eight feet from the property line?
it is equilateral-ish... give or take a few degrees based on tree location.
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oops double post...sorry about that...
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Here is the corrected image missing from the earlier post:
The winch stand didnt even shutter once! The winch mocked this tiny challenge to its SHEER POWER.
The two Snatchblocks worked flawlessly. The foundation was silent strong and solid.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F487757_441612179192999_1528330559_n.jpg&hash=20ec0ab1aee80e6d1c8c18834470561bace4c67e)
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Steadfast.
That`s a whole lot better. Wish you fysical , Psychical and Electrical power.
- Frans -
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my mast is now 35ft tall not 30ft tall...
which means my 40ft of 14 AWG drop line is also too short.
Soooo, I had to buy a new one.... >:(
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But THIS one is 50ft 0f 12 AWG...
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See I AM LEARNING!
The old one will make an awesome drop cord.
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SF-
bummer about the short cord! true though, it will make a really nice extension cord! you could even put a strain relief end on it with a 4square box with four outlets in it!
are you batteries going in the shed?
i like to put a reinforced hole in the side of the tower for the wires to exit. (pictured below) this way, as you walk by, you can grab the wire and check for twists really easily! like mentioned, a hole saw makes for quickish work of big holes in steel!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi995.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf78%2Fbirdhouseadam%2Fturbine%2Fhinge.jpg&hash=ade2023652b369aa8b536fc6df71ca873913bf06)
adam
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SF-
bummer about the short cord! true though, it will make a really nice extension cord! you could even put a strain relief end on it with a 4square box with four outlets in it!
are you batteries going in the shed?
i like to put a reinforced hole in the side of the tower for the wires to exit. (pictured below) this way, as you walk by, you can grab the wire and check for twists really easily! like mentioned, a hole saw makes for quickish work of big holes in steel!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi995.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf78%2Fbirdhouseadam%2Fturbine%2Fhinge.jpg&hash=ade2023652b369aa8b536fc6df71ca873913bf06)
adam
Smart.... ;D
But I am DONE making my Father In Law weld!
At least for a little while.. ;)
I am going to let it come out of the 3" space at the bottom of the mast.
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Be careful letting it come out the bottom, you have two bolts which may cause some rub/cut through of wire insulation. I'd reconsider the welder.... Wish you the best.
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This is the Solar Panel I ended up buying on EBAY.
I will permenantly install it on the sheds roof, to back up my Turbine...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320937207807&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160
100Watt 12Volt Solar Panel 100W 12V Poly crystalline.
$182.63
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SF, slide a couple feet of old garden hose over the drop line up into the bottom of the mast to protect it from chafing
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SF, slide a couple feet of old garden hose over the drop line up into the bottom of the mast to protect it from chafing
Smart! A great solution!
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cheating guy angles with 4 guys can be done succsefully,but cheating the angles with only three guys is another failure in the waiting.
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i like to use the garden hose idea at the top of the tower also. helps keep the cable in good shape where it rubs from the yawing. a hose clamp of all things keep the hose from sliding down the wire and getting stuck inside the tower.
adam
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Is the triangle equilateral or did you go with something less than equal because the tower is located eight feet from the property line?
it is equilateral-ish... give or take a few degrees based on tree location.
Are the guy-wires, which are near the eight foot property line, up high in the trees, instead of on the ground?
I think that would be a good idea.
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Hi
To elabourate on that last comment. The guys should really all be the same length and angle down from the point on the mast. By anchoring up a big tree you can maintain the angle but shorten the length. The angle of separation is more critical and any more than a few degrees, from 120, can result in an asymetrical suport of the tower, not too much of a problem with an antena mast but with the yawing forces on a turbine mast, especially in turbulant conditions, could allow excessive whip and movement on the mast and resulting loading on the anchor points.
The brackets the guys attach to on the mast not being at the correct angle to the guys would come under a lot of lateral pressure which puts stress on the welds. The thing to remember is the forces acting on the mast are 24/7 as long as the wind is blowing and they are not a steady loading in one dirrection. Find someone with a turbine up and running and ask if you can visit them when there is enough wind to make it work and put your hand on the mast and feel the vibration and movement.
As already said your mast looks good and well made. The very first critisism on your old mast was regarding the way you wanted to hold it up.
Brian.
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Hi
I just found this statement by spareweb on another thread on here....
I went with 3" pipe for my 40' tower, to hold a 8-foot diameter turbine. You would think that's heavy enough, but it actually wiggles and dances when the turbine is running full-tilt. I guess if I had to measure, it's 1/2" flex, half-way between guy wire attachments, which isn't a lot, but certainly visible to the naked eye.
Brian.
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IT...IS....FINISHED!
IT...IS...VICTORIOUS!
IT...IS...FLYING!!! ;D
I have MANY Photos coming... But first A Video...
Raising Steadfast's Turbine Part1:
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Here is the winch and snatch block system in full extension.
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/314707_442951149059102_630164989_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/552256_442951582392392_448287803_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/486390_442951945725689_1319511873_n.jpg)
New Face Plate made of Birch wood not oak this time
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/531579_442946442392906_1225890500_n.jpg)
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Here is the Turbine Fully Built! again...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F487814_442963149057902_261438674_n.jpg&hash=7310af361daed35e6a383404495800ead1e61b6d)
Hooking Up the Stator
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F522060_442952745725609_1473135368_n.jpg&hash=faac5335fd354ba16dbe027d6136b79851fe71fd)
Adding the Tail assembly:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F524141_442952872392263_10603796_n.jpg&hash=ac8c62d2c26ce7e0b24b13d664a3066ebf01f302)
Ready to raise!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F483228_442953012392249_792807082_n.jpg&hash=bfedd05089bfe7ef7000d354c6d26f3e3f4c3c6f)
AND THEN....IT RAINS!!! :o
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F179549_442952595725624_612025781_n.jpg&hash=1259f37216454fe84b2d828ca5ece01ed0eb58a0)
and RAINS!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F524102_442950749059142_610088317_n.jpg&hash=528ff73bbe5f672382899a1012351afc4b54f4b3)
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When YouTube finally loads them up... >:(
These will be the next two "Raising Steadfast's Turbine" videos.
Raising Steadfast's Turbine - Part 2
Raising Steadfast's Turbine - Part 3
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F563403_442977932389757_2130875499_n.jpg&hash=c3625bab4dc50fc90ff04c1bad55e94c0f23aa1e) (https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F320452_3843090407007_556111888_n.jpg&hash=0060ffa0e452d7058275f6eed2993c83305c03a9)
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BTW: The LAW of Turbine Raising is still in effect!
There was ZERO WIND as soon as the turbine was lifted
and
The ZERO winds continued to NOT exist for the rest of the day after the Turbine was fully hooked up!
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nice going there sf...
you know you could have hooked up a elect. drill to that nut on the handle...
mill looks great.....now of course the long wait for the wind....happens every time
you raise a new mill--if there is a wind it dies out as soon as the mill is up!!
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Hey, good stuff!
I put solar PV on the school's roof and we promptly had the wettest 3 months in the UK since records began, but at least I solved the drought that we had been having instead. B^>
Rgds
Damon
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SF I see that you have it up in the air but I'm probably not the only one just a little concerned with your choice of a triangle guy set up .IT looks to me like in a strong wind your bird will be on the ground before it can furl but I hope I am wrong.
But one time a city decided to up grade their street lights the new lights were half the weight but had more surface area per reflector and they added more lamp sets to each pole the first time the wind hit a high gust half of the poles bent some even broke off at the base.
All I am saying is a 3 point guy set up is at best a bit dodgy in high winds
Good luck.
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His lighter weight setup should be having lunch in Knoxville right about now. He might want to have that one be the first that gets hit by a windstorm, for now watch the radar and the skies and be ready to hoist down unless you 'feeling lucky' today.
I'm not usually that lucky. Murphy stalks me.
I'm a firm believer in testing incrementally. that comes from seeing a lot of magic blue smoke and having to answer too many questions about where it came from.
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Hi Frank
I have climbed enough masts supported in three directions, ( four is always better, and always four over 45ft.) not too much of a problem as long as the support is ballanced and are as close to 120 degs as is not obvious, but steadfast seems to avoid answering questions that he doesn't like. I would still like to see how the guys come away from the two brackets that are 180 degs to each other, I see them as being loaded at 45 degs out of line with the brackets, which puts a lot of stress on the welds, add the snatching and flexing from the turbine movement and the failure is inevitable, meaning the three directions of suport become two. The guys that are left change from suport to loading.
120 degs from a square mast is easy enough, the middle of one face and the two opposite corners.
Brian.
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i've even read about towers with 5 guys. this way, if one cable becomes disabled, there's a chance the tower will still stand until repairs are able to be made.
one thing SF could do as a safety precaution on those sideways loaded guy brackets, would be to run a short chunk of 1/4" cable through all three thimbles on the guys. this way, if one of those welds breaks loose, there's a chance that the tower won't topple. again, until repairs can be made (hopefully immediately).
adam
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one thing SF could do as a safety precaution on those sideways loaded guy brackets, would be to run a short chunk of 1/4" cable through all three thimbles on the guys. this way, if one of those welds breaks loose, there's a chance that the tower won't topple. again, until repairs can be made (hopefully immediately).
adam
Thats a great Idea!
I'll do it!
BUT WHY
Oh Why do you guys tell me things like this AFTER the TOWER is ALREADY UP? ???
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i don't think any of us really knew exactly what you had planned until the pictures were posted.
it's hard to explain every last detail when none of us have been on site for what you've been working on. although three guys isn't ideal, if maint. properly, i think it should be fine.
a note: cables stretch after initial install. after you have some decent wind, and or the tower has been up for a bit, i'd give all the turnbuckles a crank or two. last thing you want with just three cables, is any slack. your tower could start swaying in the wind and create pretty large forces on your guys.
adam
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one thing SF could do as a safety precaution on those sideways loaded guy brackets, would be to run a short chunk of 1/4" cable through all three thimbles on the guys. this way, if one of those welds breaks loose, there's a chance that the tower won't topple. again, until repairs can be made (hopefully immediately).
adam
Thats a great Idea!
I'll do it!
BUT WHY
Oh Why do you guys tell me things like this AFTER the TOWER is ALREADY UP? ???
Maybe because we don't know all the details till after its up ;D. Like the guy wires, I thought you were going with 4, then you put it up with 3?
Several people suggested tying the guys as far up the tree as possible, I DISAGREE, sure in a perfect world all the trees would flex evenly in high winds and 3 trees and your turbine could perform a graceful ballet, but that ain't going to happen in reality. In reality one tree will sway more, another less, and the third might not move at all, so one guy gets tensioned, another slackens, and the turbine suffers a tragic fall. The purpose of the guys is to keep the tower from swaying in high winds,
Beyond a few nit picky details it looks good, now lets see some storm videos ;)
Kristin
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Hi
We did try to tell you before you put it up, I also commented on the two opposite brackets, if your going to put bending forces on a weld it is usual to brace the bracket with gussets in compression, the two opposite brackets should have come from the corners on the far side from the bracket in the centre of the tube.
The guy(s) anchored up the tree should still come from the mast at the same angle as the guy that goes all the way to the ground, and the lower down the tree the less movement your going to get. A retro fit to your brackets you could run a turn or two of guy wire through the brackets and put a couple of clips to hold it, then should a bracket fail it will put the load onto the other two and round the mast.
All this has been said earlier on here. Still you have it up I hope you get enough wind to make it work, but after the first good wind I would be checking everything with a pair of binoculars and checking the guy tensions, and seeing if the drop wire is not twisting up or chaffing.
Brian
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Beyond a few nit picky details it looks good, now lets see some storm videos ;)
Kristin
My wife just called: said she is 3 miles from the house and a flash heat storm is marching through! They are getting 20 MPH gusts and no one is home to get to watch the fun of seeing what the turbine is doing...
RATS, Bats and Flamming Cats!
I am missing it! :-[
Nuts!
here I am STUCK at work!
(sigh) Yes, I'll check the guys when I get home...
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As my wife and daughter called me again, as they drove up our street,
they said "there was dabree all over the road from the wind!"
YIKES! :o
When they got home and got out of the car... they said...
"The turbine MUST have gotten Hammered!"
but
that the turbine is "moven great and still up!"
I shouted happily for them to "SHOOT VIDEO"
Woohooo!
its 5pm...Im outta here!
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:) driving home: The news just reported 60mph winds. And the neighbors tree crashed. Into our yard. But missed the turbine and the shed. And yet my turbine stands. Proudly.
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You guys are not going to believe the video I just shot of the wind damage! The tree that fell was MASSIVE... And yet the turbine is standing! Those blade must have been moving, because the red paint is stripped off to the primer on the back of the tips! I am posting this from my phone because my internet is out in my neighborhood. I will post the amazing video as soon as it comes up again!
I have Total faith in this tower now... total faith...
and soon... you will also see why....
Yes... I had to tighten my turn buckles..
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It's a shame all of those trees didnt blow over ;)
are the mill controls setup yet ? - or is the mill braked/shorted ?
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Anxiously waiting for video :P
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Yes... the controls are up... no... it is not shorted... I missed the storm so I could not see the output levels.... the neighbor saw it "spin like a fan and then bend sideways and slow down." Aka he saw it furrel... and I missed it! The battery was full... so I wasted some electricity to get it back down to 80%... very cool stuff... My internet service is wiped out so no video yet. But soon.
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Yes... the controls are up... no... it is not shorted... I missed the storm so I could not see the output levels.... the neighbor saw it "spin like a fan and then bend sideways and slow down." Aka he saw it furrel... and I missed it! The battery was full... so I wasted some electricity to get it back down to 80%... very cool stuff... My internet service is wiped out so no video yet. But soon.
Could you try uploading via mobile? (I know, I'm impatient!)
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Nope... I only have 3g on my phone not 4g... the tree missed my turbine by 15ft... it was so big around I could only touch my finger tips if I hugged it... it shattered about 10 ft up... wow! And half of my trees are still bent sideways about half way up. But the mast still stands..
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I for one am glad to hear it is still standing because I have had several concerns about your guy wires
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I for one am glad to hear it is still standing because I have had several concerns about your guy wires
well, it certainly was put to the test... and passed with flying colors...
And why would it not pass? I used your plans... ;)
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I for one am glad to hear it is still standing because I have had several concerns about your guy wires
well, it certainly was put to the test... and passed with flying colors...
And why would it not pass? I used your plans... ;)
Glad it was put to the test though!
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Internet up...
Here is the video I shot of the wind damage.
This is one of the turbine spinning slowly:
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HA HAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Man Steadfast!? I have to note that it's good to see that some people STILL KNOW HOW to show true excitement my man! I'm really happy for ya Brother! That thing seems to be Pret-ty Stable! So Good for you and all of that hard work! I honestly think that your next journey should be getting a Chainsaw and some Climbing gear and Ropes to start building yourself a good reserve of face cords from dropping those trees surrounding that B.A. Mill you got yourself there. if you could free up some airspace a good 100ft radius from the Mill you might get some decent wind coming in... Or at least clear a path in the direction that the wind blows the most!?
Either way, thanks for sahring the vid and excitement man!
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Steadfast,
I suppose you are now glad that you got rid of that bracket that was attached to your shed. Looking at your video, the tree that snapped off fell in the same direction as the turbine would of fell, if the tower was still attached to the shed.
It isn't the the medium and strong winds that test your setup, it is the 80 MPH wind blast that does.
Glad to see you finally got it going!
windy
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Several people suggested tying the guys as far up the tree as possible, I DISAGREE, sure in a perfect world all the trees would flex evenly in high winds and 3 trees and your turbine could perform a graceful ballet, but that ain't going to happen in reality. In reality one tree will sway more, another less, and the third might not move at all, so one guy gets tensioned, another slackens, and the turbine suffers a tragic fall. The purpose of the guys is to keep the tower from swaying in high winds,
Beyond a few nit picky details it looks good, now lets see some storm videos ;)
Kristin
Yes, you can't tie it very high up in a swaying tree. However, tying a 40 foot high guy wire to the ground at only eight feet from the tower is hugely more stressful than, tying to ground 40 feet from the tower. So some slight elevation tied to the very thickest tree is likely a good solution to a difficult situation. It requires some judgment and some math. For example, just eight feet up will gain a huge mechanical advantage at that tight angle. I never proposed "as high up as possible".
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Internet up...
Here is the video I shot of the wind damage.
I just watched this video, and just for the record, I am not sure about what I am seeing regarding the orientation or height of guy wires.
I would be a little happy but not too happy, because it looks like the tree blew down in the direction. which is not the most vulnerable for the tower. I think the most vulnerable wind is maybe from the eight-foot-distance-neighbor property towards the tower. Maybe that wind direction never happened. I just speak up to make you think, for safety sake, not that I actually know any details about what I am seeing regarding angles or wire thickness or parts.
It was a good first test though. Congratulations.
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3 or 4 guys, New Mexico is known for our gusts, we can test a tower. My advise is build the tower side anchors so they surround the tower, do not test your welding.
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congrats on the tower passing its first test.if i remember correctly,that meter you bought should in the lower left corner,should be flashing/rotating display.it should display max watts,max voltage ,min volts..that it saw when you werent there.just curious what is the max watts or amps rotating accross the display?you dont have to be standing over the meter to know the max numbers.
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really...? huh.... :o
I will check that out when I get home!
and let you guys know...
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Trial by fire, or would it be wind and water in this case :D. Well now you'll have to get a "turbine cam" so we can catch that furling action in the next storm ;) Lookin good!
Kristi
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Doc wattson question: maybe a few....
I have zero data of the storm on the doc.
I also hve zero data of the storm on my weather monitor. (Forgot to feed it batteries- duh)
I thoaght maybe the doc was not solidly wired,
so last evening I wired it an made sure all the contacts where solid.
Once done we had some solid wind come through...
I stood there and watched the doc live as the blades easily hit 200 rpm
Nothing...
not even a .1 volt on the doc.
It shows the info from the batteries but nothing from the turbine. >:(
Is this because the turbines rectifier is directly tied to the battery
with the doc similary tied in but bridged?
If so because the doc is also under the same resistance
will the doc not display a single milivolt until cut in?
I don't understand what is wrong here?
I can take a picture of my set up if you guys think it may be do to stupid circuit work.
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SF-
a picture would help. the doc wattson is meant to be inline with the wires between the rectifier and the battery. actually i think it is inline with just the negative wire between the battery and rectifier.
no, it won't show anything until the turbine reaches cut in.
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SF-
a picture would help. the doc wattson is meant to be inline with the wires between the rectifier and the battery. actually i think it is inline with just the negative wire between the battery and rectifier.
no, it won't show anything until the turbine reaches cut in.
Shaaawooo... so I didn't mess it up... GREAT! ;D
It just sucks that you have to wait for cut in...
BTW: I feed batteries to my weather station located on my mast... here are todays ALARMING numbers!
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/479925_444134912274059_392845159_n.jpg)
108f can you believe it!
It is insain hot ot there!
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check the wiring SF
I find it rather hard to believe that your area had enough wind to blow trees down yet even that wasn't enough to get an amp out of the mill
maybe a hand draw diagram would be better
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1.1 MPH winds, better make sure the storm flaps are closed, that's a hell of a breeze
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I hung out with a friend today who happens to be a electic engineer.
and we put togeather ghurt's load dump kit.
He had never built a load dump before...
he was like a kid in a candy store while do it too.
Ill post pictures tomarrow morning.
and you guys can tell me how we did.
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i'm still confused that your doc wattson (if hooked up correctly) didn't have didly for output from the 60mph winds???
did you have your EE buddy take a look at that also? an easy way to check would be to pull a running car up to the shed, and run it's battery through the doc wattson. 14.4 versus (probably) lower shed bank voltage would definitely yield some results through the unit.
it would be nice for all forum members to see what a proper axial can occasionally do in a low wind area!
keep up the good work!
adam
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Here are the load dump photos in order of production.
My friend Tom (left) the Electrical Device Engineer and computer hardware guru and me (right).
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F403782_476567895704454_1574814014_n.jpg&hash=54acd9f8a7413ae50a37e60a45c81a44e1d23737)
Plans for Ghurd's groovy load dump and control system:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi701.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww20%2Fghurd1%2FStray%2520Pics%2FControllerPhotoShop2.jpg&hash=77f37774ac8479dfc9b49f2911d0a4ccaa4e7cce)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi701.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww20%2Fghurd1%2FSketches%2F2fets8res.jpg&hash=0b5a93ecb64cb0487970737c8dc8240a07bb9cf9)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F382561_444503535570530_1990376749_n.jpg&hash=c8893229f19f4b7b793917be2c8e9bd8ddd34c27)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F483031_444537778900439_1758228280_n.jpg&hash=688c91bd679991dbdfeb35b4eedd05b0aa36624e)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F534642_444538902233660_1262572919_n.jpg&hash=e5e17962b9b12cf8fcca37c492867c080ace13e3)
Adding "Flyback" Diods
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F523695_444543082233242_1388326982_n.jpg&hash=e8cbe8ff13642baf1b9bb7bfc2d58e7999748be9)
Flyback Effect schematic
[attach=1]
Adding the FETs onto aluminum frame (which will act as a heatsink)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F311646_444554515565432_1715760505_n.jpg&hash=43e6c992471d4c20a9f4fd70593533ae1df93707)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F402951_444554618898755_419957267_n.jpg&hash=86a83ca8a137cb9e4449d30a61178f2bea1cd226)
Now all I have to do is install it high on the inside of my shed's wall
and hook it up to the battery.
let me know how we did....
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I am hopeing that GHurd will take these photos and my installation photos (comming)
and start a new (step by step) thread about how to build a proper load dump.
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Hey Steadfast,
What a nice job you guys did on that dump load..Looks super! 8)
I make it to be about 320 watts at your 12 volt nominal system (~14.4v)
Hope others may comment on this..um..I'd be worried about having all the FET tabs (the drains) connected together via the aluminum frame? May be a non issue but that frame will be electrically 'hot' giving us one giant dump load instead of the four seperate dump load sections we planned on..so heads up there.
You've really come a long way with this project and it's been a joy to watch your progress.
All good fun!
cheers, dave
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I sure am glad you posted these pictures of your dump load as I am about to build one simular and this really helps.
Thanks
gww
PS I am curious about dave's comment also,
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i see your wiring problem.you are not retifing proper.you are not using the negitive terminal on the retifier and have a incomelpete ciricut,no power.you should have three wires comeing down the tower.one for each fase of the generator.each of these wires goes to its own rectifier,on the ac terminals.the brack switch,if you are using one will be on the ac side.this completes the ac side.on the retifiers,the positives are connectedin paralled to the positive battery terminal.the negitives are connected parralled to the battery negitive terminal.if you use a doc wattson meter,it is used inline between the rectifiers and the battery.this is all in the book you you have.do more home work.
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the physical connections of the drains dont seem clear alright ...i,m sure Tom would like his nice work to have the full details in the post ....
...maybe best to get the diagrams right ( that is ...the actual layout you personally use ) ...the first diagram looks like an ametek type alt with a blocking diode ?...but yours is a three phase axial mill ?
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I looked at this closer earlier today, and I think the dumpload is isolated from the frame, even the steel washers inbetween the resistors are isolated since he is tieing into the connection tabs of the resistors.
Heatsinking to the frame with the mosfets "should be ok" but a strip of formica insulator most likely should be used where he's using the silicone putty and bolting to the frame.
JW
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mmm...." most likely " .. i think most likely and fets dont get on very well ....its either needed or not
it is a very nice dump load Tom built ....but the devils in the detail for anyone copying it in six months (or two years ) time ?
its a long thread ...but the first diagram seems to have nothing to do with Steadfast, s actuall mill ...
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Here it is installed HIGH up (out of reach) on my sheds wall.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F578646_445005005520383_92779280_n.jpg&hash=ace2460b60448818f28669eb589c482a512799c1)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F582823_445005305520353_863984739_n.jpg&hash=eb40da54d900a3a4f0afd06bf6b2de5a8ccb1482)
The Dump Load Control switch which comes on when my batteries fill up and hit 14.4v
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F375700_445005505520333_1792127180_n.jpg&hash=7d34043afe079b3eeeafffdb84af814818bf1152)
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i'm still confused that your doc wattson (if hooked up correctly) didn't have didly for output from the 60mph winds???
has this question been addressed yet ?
I asked the same, yet no apparent interest or even an acknowledgement that the wiring would be checked - 60mph winds would have produced plenty - nothing on the watts up - so where did that power go ?
How come the control systems are supposed to have been fully functional - the mill has been flying for a while ?
........ yet a dump and controller have only just been built ?
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I thoaght maybe the doc was not solidly wired,
so last evening I wired it an made sure all the contacts where solid.
I did rewire it... then I was told I would see no data until cut in...
I am thinking about hooking up my running car both to test the doc and the dump load.
But where do I hook the car up to test those???
I have a much more mobil car battery charger, maybe I can use that instead?
As for the snide comment questioning why everything was not done yet:
what? Do I look like a clown hired to amuse you? Do you want a refund for your circus ticket?
I am just one guy with a job, a family, and a life who is not doing and posting all this, merely to entertain you.
I get things done as I get them done.
If you want it done faster or better, please, feel free to pm me for my address.
YOU can always drop by and do the work.... I'll watch and even buy the beer.
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I thoaght maybe the doc was not solidly wired,
so last evening I wired it an made sure all the contacts where solid.
I did rewire it... then I was told I would see no data until cut in...
I am thinking about hooking up my running car both to test the doc and the dump load.
But where do I hook the car up to test those???
I have a much more mobil car battery charger, maybe I can use that instead?
As for the snide comment questioning way everything was not done yet:
what? Do you want a refund for you circus ticket?
I am just one guy with a job, a family, and a life who is not doing this, merely to entertain you.
I get things done as I get them done, if you want it done faster or better feel free to pm me for my address. YOU can always drop by and do the work.... I watch and even buy the beer.
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SF I think someone may have mentioned it might be a good idea to hook up a car battery to check the wiring of your Doc Watson, and maybe run your storage bank down some then charge it back up but I'm just a jafo that has watched this thread for a while now
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I was referring to sean-orc, not you...
frank, you have been increadibly helpful and encouraging.
Do you think the car charger might work for testing?
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I don't see why not, especially if your charger has a quick boost switch you need to get your input voltage higher than your battery bank but since I don't know much about the Doc Watson or the surge amperage capacity it is better to let these guys who know how and when to use a 10 microfrad capacitor or a 1k resistor.
to give you advice on that
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SF-
i asked the same questions as sean. it wasn't meant to be in a "hurry the f up" sense, but rather trying to verify that you had made proper connections ect. i can see from your photos that rectification isn't the problem, as you've got one of those all in one jobbies. i like those! if your batteries are, say 12.5v, and you hook your running car to the bank via the doc wattson, it should log peak watts, Wh ect.
i'd just use jumper cables, or maybe jumper cables with a length of #10 hooked to them. this will eliminate big ol metal jumper clamps around a high amp hour bank... :o hook the positive on the car to the main positive on the bank, then the car negative to the non-bank side of the doc wattson. you could also check your dump controller and dump load by turning the trim pot down to below 14.4. then it should start dumping while your car is still "charging" the bank. just make sure you re-set the trim pot after the experiment is finished.
adam
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As for the snide comment questioning why everything was not done yet:
what? Do I look like a clown hired to amuse you? Do you want a refund for your circus ticket?
SF with all due respects, people have been warning you ever since these threads started
I am the second person who has asked (at least 2 days ago) if the control sysstems are fully functional, you have either ignored those questions, or waffled about re-doing some connections.
You have still not proven the control systems, yet you apparently have time to spend building a dump load ...................... even thou the mill has been flying for many days.
That 60mph will have produced a decent amount of power - which could potentially have burnt your house to the ground.
I don't give a monkeys if you thought my comment was snide (it wasn't intended) - I am trying to protect you from harm.
Please read the following thread, and then consider lowering the mill until you are POSTIVE that the controls work correctly.
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17188.0.html
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russquinlan.co.uk%2FLong_Rig%2FWelcome_files%2Ffire2.jpg&hash=acffbf73b2de6243c9f8763c321b850ff0d47815)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russquinlan.co.uk%2FLong_Rig%2FWelcome_files%2Ffire.jpg&hash=8edba939a4cc3d0609f303b9fd204776cd986b2e)
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SF
To test the doc watson , short the mill just like you would if you need to for a storm, disconnect the output from the 3-phase rectifier from the doc watson, hook your battery charger directly to the input side of the doc watson, (Being VERY careful NOT to short or connect backwards as it both will fry it).
Turn on battery charger and put in boost mode if you can, you should see incoming power ratings.
The screen should change every few seconds showing Amps, voltage , max amps, etc.
IF you do not see these, take a pic of the doc watson with input and out connections if you can and post, let put this question to rest.
GM MODE POST
ALL
Let's remember this is a long thread and a great many things have been worked through both here and via PM/emails.
Let's get back to being civil !!
Bruce S
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good answer
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good answer
I much preferred your now deleted reply ;)
I'd say the same but coming from me apparently it would have been seen as a snide remark - I also hope nothing gets burnt.
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I have not been able to do anything because I am at work until 5pm, (it is now 1pm)
But I do have ways of clearifying what I have done with the Doc Wattson hook up.
I hope this clearifies things...
Here is an older photo of my rectifier hook up, before I connected the doc:
(while I had some decent wind I used the the kill switch and it totally works great)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F481375_427850933902457_1301360019_n.jpg&hash=dd2782b3eb1283ef795e22f0a2ddc6ca608f2bd3)
Here is a drawing of what I did with the doc:
(After I rewired it...AFTER the storm)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F528134_445233512164199_1605234168_n.jpg&hash=d8f259d69aa9b4c4f98458382b9b0f6355e2e800)
Both, the heavy battery wires, and the doc's lines, are hard soldered into the output of the rectifier.
Will it damage the rectifier if I hook the battery charger also to the output of the rectifier to conduct my test?
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someone just PMed me this:
That Doc Wattson is wired in parallel with the battery cables. It needs to be wired in series with the negative line. Look at the instructions closely and use the 3 wire connection method.
I dont have the doc's instructions anymore,
If he is right, can someone draw a picture of what he is talking about?
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SF-
you could also check your dump controller and dump load by turning the trim pot down to below 14.4. then it should start dumping while your car is still "charging" the bank. just make sure you re-set the trim pot after the experiment is finished.
adam
Should I unhook the dump load cables from the batteries
and hook them directly into the charger to test the dump load?
The "trim Pot" you are referring to must be inside the black switch box.
What does the Trim pot look like and how would I adjust it?
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SF;
I can be frustrating when "WORK" <-there's that four letter word again> gets in the way ;)
The pic/drawing of the doc with batteries is a bit confusing , but the PMer is correct. The DOC needs to be in series, so if/when you can disconnect that 2nd battery and see if you start seeing changes.
I too am at work and can't take a pic of what my hook up is, but I will once I'm home about 7ish your time.
Bruce S
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in my post that I had edited because after posting it I saw that Bruce had made a post that was more important than what I had.
But my concerns now after seeing the pics of the burned out dump load location is what SF's dump load is mounted on.
It is pretty common knowledge what I think about wood structures so I wont go there
I would prefer to see the dump load assembly and all of the other electrical bits mounted on a panel inside at least a type 1 nema switch gear enclosure
But that is just my being anal about fire & safety
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If this diagram is correct: (i use the top photo)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rc-electronics-usa.com%2Fimg%2Frv_meterconnections2_c10.jpg&hash=14aae67f267c10d6f96e8c7ceee469c2e0a13c81)
The "battery" in the diagram is the DC comming out of my rectifier...
and the "DC Inverter" is my battery bank.
I then forget the switch and just keep the red line in a solid + line...
and
All I have to do is disconnect only the positive wire comming out of the Doc ("to load")
and my doc will begin to measure all incomming info because it is no longer under load...
From this:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F528134_445233512164199_1605234168_n.jpg&hash=d8f259d69aa9b4c4f98458382b9b0f6355e2e800)
To This:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F575646_445282638825953_1389651855_n.jpg&hash=a1eba14c0cc529c2533a672289a7b32a53b29767)
Is that right?
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SF;
After looking at the cool pic you put up, I can now tell why you're NOT getting numbers from the mill ;D.
You have the source of power from the battery. The source should be hooked over on the output of the rectifier. The load then goes to the battery.
Since the mill will not be a continuous source , you may need to keep the aux battery connection hooked up, but maybe not.
Disconnect the ALL wires from the doc watson from the system completely, put the mill into safe mode (meaning short the system, throw the switch ;) ). Connect source wires to output of rectifier , then load to battery, if it seeing enough juice from battery it'll light and you won't need the aux battery.
Return mill to normal and IF there's wind enough you may be numbers moving along.
Once you get home of course.
I have to make a call to Australia to help a nurse transmit EKG data tonight so I may still be at work when you get this completed :)
I try staying with you on this tonight otherwise PM me:-)
Bruce S
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Now that I have the reply up there let me try to explain why.
See, the source is the power that you're trying to measure incoming.
Those pics you have are to measure how much juice is being used, be devices such as RC airplanes and such.
For those you would want to know how efficient the electric motor is working and how your batteries are holding up, the pics you have are for doing just that.
We YOU want to know how much juice is coming into the batteries from the mill, so the source needs to be the mill. I use mine for incoming from solar panels.
The nice little thing hooked up my way is that it will tell you the voltage of your battery as well, even at night with a quick look you can tell what your battery voltage is.
Most this helps.
Bruce S
PS>> Just in case you happen to want to ask, the answer is YES you can hook one up to the battery, using the battery as the source with the end going to say an inverter and it will tell you the battery voltage as well as how much juice is or was used. 8), Which is what we did for our e-trike.
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I tired to tell him that about ten pages ago, but didn't have a good picture, the doc gets all it's info from the negative wire from the rectifier, the neg wire goes directly from the rectifier to the black wire source side of the doc.
The neg load side goes to your negative battery post or buss bar,
The red source wire goes to your positive battery terminal or buss bar, it is only providing power to run the doc, it measures nothing, you can switch this wire to zero the doc out, the load side red wire is capped and goes nowhere.
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I tested the load dump by turning the tiny aces inside 4 turns counter clockwise until both lights lit up... then I ouch tested each row of porcelin things by touch. They heated up but not enough to burn me. I then tightened the tiny screw 4 turns clockwise. Only the green light remained on.
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I hooked up my car charger to the dc side of the rectifier. And shot a video of the watts as they instantly poured in... my wife has the phone charger that also acts as my upload cable so you may not see that video until tomarrow night. I am hoping that my shotty conections to the Doc before the storm explains why no info was on the doc yet the battery was full.
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Shoddy.
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And be very, very careful with those pots turn to the end stops very, very lightly, or you wont have a screw slot anymore.
also one suggestion, take that standoff mess off your building (before it gets ripped off) and tension the guys so the tower is off your building a little.
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glad you got it working! now for another (smaller) storm, so we can see how she does!
just a small note to others using a doc wattson... both red wires are soldered together inside the case, so it really doesn't matter which one you use for the three wire connection. just a small simplifying note.
one thing you could do for a bit of safety with your dump load, is to mount it with longer screws and a few short chunks of pipe. this will create an air gap behind the dump, and make it less prone to disaster (fire).
it's normal for your dump to be barely warm with just a running car hooked to it. i've only felt mine get fairly hot when there's close to a Kw running through it, and it's sized for about 1400w. mine sits on the floor with standoff bolts to give it a 2" gap between it and the floor. it also has three muffin fans, because it makes me feel better about the whole thing, though i doubt they're needed.
adam
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I still think dumping on the DC side is a waste, dump through an inverter and use the power for something useful.
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Hope others may comment on this..um..I'd be worried about having all the FET tabs (the drains) connected together via the aluminum frame? May be a non issue but that frame will be electrically 'hot' giving us one giant dump load instead of the four seperate dump load sections we planned on..so heads up there.
Dave is correct.
The fet tabs are internally connected to the Drain.
It results in one giant dump load, which can result in fets cascade failing.
I have some TO-220 themal pads that conduct heat but not electricity, bushings and screws, which would probably be the best option the way it is assembled.
Shoot me an email if you need some.
G-
PS- I hear a few people are getting emails to me bounced back.
Not sure why that is.
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I still think dumping on the DC side is a waste, dump through an inverter and use the power for something useful.
that is totally true for a large system with multiple big turbines, BUT for for me, and many others, the cost alone for a dedicated dump inverter, plus a relay driver to control it all is a total waste of money.
i'd rather buy another 200-400W of solar with that same money. it would provide more usable power more of the time for less cost.
thanks for chiming in G on the dump connections of the mosphets?? that's beyond me... :)
adam
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Hope others may comment on this..um..I'd be worried about having all the FET tabs (the drains) connected together via the aluminum frame? May be a non issue but that frame will be electrically 'hot' giving us one giant dump load instead of the four seperate dump load sections we planned on..so heads up there.
Dave is correct.
The fet tabs are internally connected to the Drain.
It results in one giant dump load, which can result in fets cascade failing.
I have some TO-220 themal pads that conduct heat but not electricity, bushings and screws, which would probably be the best option the way it is assembled.
Shoot me an email if you need some
Yes... send them...
and let me know how much to send via paypal too.
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also one suggestion, take that standoff mess off your building (before it gets ripped off) and tension the guys so the tower is off your building a little.
That old thang is not in use anymore.
It just hangs off the side of my shed like an old lady's carbuncle.
just a waiten to be cut off.
Which is its destiny.
When I get the time...
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SF;
Now that you're got things hooked up and reading, you should be getting some kind of readings. Let us know what you're seeing or better yet take a pic of the front of the doc watson and post it.
Cheers
Bruce S
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will do... ;D
Now to petition God for some actual wind... ::)
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Wait for it, while driving up in Iowa, and North east Missouri the wind was a constant 15mph, SOooo while I was stopped for fuel... I asked it make it over to NC, just for you ;D
Sorry about the rain though ;)
Cheers
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Wait for it, while driving up in Iowa, and North east Missouri the wind was a constant 15mph, SOooo while I was stopped for fuel... I asked it make it over to NC, just for you ;D
Sorry about the rain though ;)
Cheers
yes...good...do that again...
everyone join in! ;D
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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
derachooooooooooooooooooo
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I have meditated you a good wind storm. Hope that wind turbine will run the AC...... ;D
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eletricty follows the path of lest resitance.all the power needs to flow threw the doc wattson and not be allowed to follow alternet pathways to the battery.that second path that you showed to the battery needs to be eliminated.
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will do... ;D
Now to petition God for some actual wind... ::)
Anything flowing through the Doc yet?
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will do... ;D
Now to petition God for some actual wind... ::)
Anything flowing through the Doc yet?
Well being a Class 1 wind area... I don't know how frequent or powerful enough, regualrly, the winds will be for SF.
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So far.... nothing....
At ChrisO's request I eliminated the larger path and let everything flow through the Doc... nada....
Yeasterday a quick heat storm came marching through the area and side swiped us sending decent winds briefly thru the turbine. Nothing on the Doc.
With the turbine moving around 60-120 RPM, I busted out my multimeter and checked each phase to see if something was even coming down the line at all... All 3 phases are working...
I then un-hooked all my lines coming out of my rectifier and the multi meter showed there was 6-9 v comming out of it.
As it spun, then un-hooked the positive red wire heading out of the doc to my batteries, so the only energy flowing to it came from only the turbine...
The Doc posted some weird error code which faded in and out as the blades spead up and slowed. Then as the blades wound down the error faded away to a blank screen...
I then hooked up the red wire again and it came back on.
So far I have yet to see the turbine hit over 200 RPM to reach cut in... (except for the freak 60MPh storm that I MISSED)
wondering why that is... perhaps summer winds just suck in general??..
Perhaps the bird is too heavy? Clueless here...
BTW: I installed two more matching batteries... I am now up to 6 six volts in my 12 volt array...
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The problem is simple, you don't have it wired right, it NEEDS the red wire to power itself, if you don't wire it right it will never work, you have been told several times how to do it right, there are thousands of these things all over the planet working perfectly every day.
If it's wired right if that turbine makes one watt it will measure it.
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don't be such a weiner Fabs:
Both Wires from rectifier into "source" both wires out to battery from "output".
no other wires from redtifier to battery.... How hard is THAT?
If you think there is a better way, dont post a link to a diagram,
draw a picture, take a photo of it, and post it.
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So far I have yet to see the turbine hit over 200 RPM to reach cut in... (except for the freak 60MPh storm that I MISSED)
wondering why that is... perhaps summer winds just suck in general??..
Perhaps the bird is too heavy? Clueless here...
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Another interesting picture of that 60MPH Storm.
The same storm that knocked down the trees,
also made the blades spin so fast it peeled the back off the back of the turbine blades
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/599407_447565015264382_1087794948_n.jpg)
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first it seems you finally got the doc wired in correctly.most likely your big problem is the lack of wind.while your waiting for the wind you could double check your diode block.verify that there is no shorts to the heat sink.there is a few other tricks you could play just to see flow through the meter.your solar is probably pushing up the system volt by at lest two volts.turn off the solar and run down the battery bank a bit,lowering the voltage.this should lower the cut in voltage.an other experiment would be to create a temperary ,isolated,experamentl battery bank of just one six volt battery and then attemp to charge that battery with just the turbine,none of the 12 volt system would be connected to the six volt system.if you dont understand this last experement completely you should not do it.
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SF;
Just-doug has a good idea, but instead of going the battery route, how do you have your solar stuff (Non-broken) hooked up?
I can take a pic of my little test unit and show it to you.
Solar always has stuff going in, you could hook up doc to that just to make sure stuff is working :-)
After work of course :D
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don't be such a weiner Fabs:
Both Wires from rectifier into "source" both wires out to battery from "output".
no other wires from redtifier to battery.... How hard is THAT?
but something isnt quite right
you mentioned a fading error msg on the watts up that came and went - that sounds like the meter is waking up only when it is seeing the mill output (which will mostly be zero)
you should see the display showing battery volts all of the time (assuming it is connected correctly to the battery)
perhaps disconnect the mill and see if the display is constant when just connected to the battery
in that state it will show no current flow
however, when the mill output exceeds the battery voltage, current will flow into the mill
the point of which currents starts flowing into the battery is called cut in
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don't be such a weiner Fabs:
Both Wires from rectifier into "source" both wires out to battery from "output".
no other wires from redtifier to battery.... How hard is THAT?
If you think there is a better way, dont post a link to a diagram,
draw a picture, take a photo of it, and post it.
NO, no, no, no, no, no wrong, wrong, wrong, the negative wire from the rectifier to the black wire on the source side, the red wire on the source side goes to your positive battery terminal simply to power the unit.
The doc gets it's info from the negative side of the rectifier, you do NOT run both wires from the rectifier to the source side then to the battery bank.
You have it wired wrong.
Int the top diagram here substitute the battery for your rectifier, and the DC inverter for your battery bank.
http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/ammeters/3-wire-meter-connection.html
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FAB;
Probably means wires from rectifier to source load wires go to battery. Which is the way I requested he set it up.
Here like this
[attach=1]
NOTE: Mine is Solar though
The errors he gets with fading is the unit not having enough juice to keep display live.
Sub out battery (which is what the mill acts like) for juice coming out of rectifier.
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Here would be a better way to go until everything is worked out.
[attach=1]
SF if you have a cheapo 9V battery, you can use a old CDROM connector, it should fit right into your doc-watson. I know this says Wattsup but they're pretty much the same, unless you don't have the little aux pins on the side.
Bruce S
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as long as the destination battery (or load) isnt dead flat the watts up really doesn't need a secondary battery (unless you want to keep the cumulative Ah/Wh figures) when the load is removed
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For his setup until we really see what's going on, it'll be better for know.
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For his setup until we really see what's going on, it'll be better for know.
nope it'll just add yet another thing to get wrong
he has a voltmeter and appears to know how to use it
all he has to do is to measure and ensure the load battery isn't below the watts up V min - and if it is that low the load battery needs to be thrown in the bin
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If a 12 volt battery can't supply 4 or more volts he has bigger fish to fry, wired the way i suggested it will always give you all the readings the unit is capable of, there will always be a display, the normally closed switch is to kill positive power to zero the unit out.
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The doc gets it's info from the negative side of the rectifier
SF, do some casual reading on NPN vs PNP junctions in switching devices, you must consider "active" voltage drop when switching at the ground end, vs BATT+ end switching-wise which would be considered opposite[pnp] (Its not pnp its npn 'ground switching').
JW
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I'm a little confused by the different suggestions as to how the unit should be installed. Should it look something like this?
[attach=1]
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Simplefun, I found it most interesting that you specify "the direction of current flow" in your schematic.
This is basic electron theory. link-
http://autolabscopediagnostics.com/electron.htm
Electrons are negatively charged particles that move toward something that is positively charged.
Back in the times of older vehicle's when Hole theory was prevalant (vs electron theory) cars and tractors had a 6 volt positve ground.
Basics always follow thru logically...
JW
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I'm a little confused by the different suggestions as to how the unit should be installed. Should it look something like this?
(Attachment Link)
YES! precisely, with a switch in the wire from the + on the batt to the doc, or you could just unhook the wire if you want to zero the unit, this can be very light gauge wire, I used a wire from a wall wart with a white stripe.
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Simplefun, I found it most interesting that you specify "the direction of current flow" in your schematic.
This is basic electron theory. link-
http://autolabscopediagnostics.com/electron.htm
Electrons are negatively charged particles that move toward something that is positively charged.
Back in the times of older vehicle's when Hole theory was prevalant (vs electron theory) cars and tractors had a 6 volt positve ground.
Basics always follow thru logically...
JW
He didn't, that diagram is from the company website, he just put the battery and rectifier in the right places.
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I'm a little confused by the different suggestions as to how the unit should be installed. Should it look something like this?
(Attachment Link)
SF, if you wire it up like this it will work guaranteed, unless you smoked it somehow.......................which would not suprise me at this point ???
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I'm a little confused by the different suggestions as to how the unit should be installed. Should it look something like this?
(Attachment Link)
Finally... something that is crystal/retarded clear....
we in the circuitly challenged section thank you.
I will try it when I get home from work today...
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You don't understand the written word? I explained that diagram to you at least three times in extremely clear English.
Then posted a picture with another clear explanation.
I believe you should make sure you have extremely good fire insurance, because you WILL end up burning something down.
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You don't understand the written word?
ha ha ha ha ha .... you crack me up Fab.... ;D
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You don't understand the written word?
Many can read but few do actually understand the written WORD because of preconceived notions and the desire to do it their way! :o
If mankind did not have the stated problem then the entire world would be a much better place. ;D
Thurmond
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You don't understand the written word? I explained that diagram to you at least three times in extremely clear English.
Then posted a picture with another clear explanation.
I believe you should make sure you have extremely good fire insurance, because you WILL end up burning something down.
You don't understand the written word?
Many can read but few do actually understand the written WORD because of preconceived notions and the desire to do it their way! :o
If mankind did not have the stated problem then the entire world would be a much better place. ;D
Thurmond
Sometimes people get issues with "reading comprehension" confused with "explanatory variation".... IF that makes sense... What may seem Crystal Clear to one person, may not to another. Thinking patterns do vary slightly from person to person. There are also other factors that can be involve such as fatigue, stress, nutrition, etc... Some people just need to read/ hear/ see things in a different manner to understand it in comparison to another. Why that is, once again, I believe has many factors.
I think that patience truly is a virtue when getting someone else to understand things that you are trying to communicate to them.
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Patience...AND PICTURES ... ;D
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Patience...AND PICTURES ... ;D
OH yeah, those too! ;D
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You don't understand the written word?
Many can read but few do actually understand the written WORD because of preconceived notions and the desire to do it their way! :o
If mankind did not have the stated problem then the entire world would be a much better place. ;D
Thurmond
And this thread would be about four pages long. LOL
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You don't understand the written word?
Many can read but few do actually understand the written WORD because of preconceived notions and the desire to do it their way! :o
If mankind did not have the stated problem then the entire world would be a much better place. ;D
Thurmond
Tough Crowd...
And this thread would be about four pages long. LOL
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Pics...written...What more is their.
All that has been written, and all the pics sent should be MORE than enough for even a nutless monkey to get.
I could have come into this without the slightest idea of what a wind turbine even is, and by page 16 on this thread, and page 25 on the other, could walk away with my masters in turbine building, and set-up.
I guess this sight is a great tool for learning. ;D
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Okay folks.
Let's let the last post that breezyears put up be the last nasty gram for a bit huh?
This is once again going down the wrong path.
Those posting nasty-grams need to take a smoke or coffee break from it for a bit.
AND with that I'll ask Breezyears? Where's the pic and data from yours?
Saying something nasty about someone is easy on a keyboard, let's see your numbers from your mill or your setup .
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I dont recall saying anything nasty about anybody.
All i was trying to say is, that with all the info gathered on this topic from the collection of experienced people... i have learned a thing or two.
As for my set up, and results. I just have a 10' 24v Hugh Piggott that i built some time ago after also being led down the treadmill motor path. I infact have no results as i am in the final stages of moving to a larger property where i can attain some.
But i can tell you that i WILL have results after reading, and following this forum for some time now. And i will most willingly post them.
Thanks,
Steve.
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Don't sweat it, Bruce is of the shoot first and ask questions later school of moderation. ;)
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Thanks Bruce... but I have a pretty thick skin...
That much must be obvious by now.... ha haaa....
Pics...written...What more is their.
All that has been written, and all the pics sent should be MORE than enough for even a nutless monkey to get.
I could have come into this without the slightest idea of what a wind turbine even is, and by page 16 on this thread, and page 25 on the other, could walk away with my masters in turbine building, and set-up.
I guess this sight is a great tool for learning. ;D
Quite right... you guessed it...
This is in fact the second of two training threads.
they where created for two reasons
1. So that even I could fiquire out how to build one of these.
2. So that others just as clueless as I could learn from my trials and errors.
If I where the smartest guy in the room all these answers to so many questions would not be made so increadibly crystal clear... I have stood proudly on the sholders of giants. (Even though some of them bitched the whole time) I am proud that my vast incompetence has become a catylist for the education of so many... That is why I did it...
Yes... your welcome...
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Btw.... fabs..... I rewired the doc to your specification and to that picture simplefun posted.
I will post a picture of it soon....
Also the doc did nothing different with the new wireing ...
but that is only because the turbine only spun upto around 30-60rpms.
Yes the doc works... because before I rewired it I ran some test juice through it to see if the new non-busted chinese solar panel I received in the mail today was working... it is...
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(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F315439_448234461864104_647984336_n.jpg&hash=2ead43e38435988bba7becb73c3421118f2fd4c0)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=146772.0;attach=5923;image)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F553400_448101485210735_363935300_n.jpg&hash=8fcbdde3c666d5c417d9e28f603b4509cdadeef5)
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bottom left hand of the display should be Ap (along with a few others)
it's showing zero in the first image, which indicates no current has been put through it, since last power up
what's the highest figure you have seen there ?
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Well, those pics were pointless, except that I can't believe I have to ask this, is that breaker in the line from the positive side of the rectifier to the battery?
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Don't sweat it, Bruce is of the shoot first and ask questions later school of moderation. ;)
Only 'cause I care ::).
Fab, hows the bionic arm? you doing the rack-based torture chamber yet? Or did they go the give you a giant sized rubber band and send you home?
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Well, those pics were pointless, except that I can't believe I have to ask this, is that breaker in the line from the positive side of the rectifier to the battery?
NOPE... the 70amp breaker is there to protect the inverter from the battery.
ohhh, I can't resist....
You don't understand the written word?
What you don't understand the picture before your eyes?
he he he....
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bottom left hand of the display should be Ap (along with a few others)
it's showing zero in the first image, which indicates no current has been put through it, since last power up
what's the highest figure you have seen there ?
zero....
but then the Doc was wired differently... til now...
I will see if it recorded anything when I get home.
To Fab's credit: usually he is not wrong about these things.
so, I am hopeful that fab's circuit will work... We will see....
.
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Sf Can you get a nice full in frame shot of the system and perhaps day out a more proper style schematic? The pictures with the wiring laying all about IS kind of hard to decypher (Lol I'm one to talk my bed has more lose wires at it's foot then most power companies scrap yards!)
For your self n yer families safety you may with to take the time and make a proper distrobution/control pannel try and get the wires tied down, the benifit is two fold as when futur issues creep up fixing them will become way faster!
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Sf Can you get a nice full in frame shot of the system and perhaps day out a more proper style schematic? The pictures with the wiring laying all about IS kind of hard to decypher (Lol I'm one to talk my bed has more lose wires at it's foot then most power companies scrap yards!)
For your self n yer families safety you may with to take the time and make a proper distrobution/control pannel try and get the wires tied down, the benifit is two fold as when futur issues creep up fixing them will become way faster!
I agree... It will not stay this way....
but I have to figure out which Doc Wattson circuit works first...
before I secure down the lines and cut out all unnecessary connections.
So far... I can still keep track of it all... by looking at it.
.
.
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That's the cherry on the top of when you redo the wiring it oft fixes the glitch!
From years of making basic power/Control panels, and control systems I've repaired, I oft start by just rewiring em properly and they tend to work perfect with no other intervention! I think atm if you where to strip it down and rewire it in a more organized fashion that it will tend to work if not be easier to rectify the issue.
By having it all jumbled up and spread around the links behind fualts get harder to find.
I'm thinking that it may be apart of your problem, fyi as well tape is your enimy any time you can avoid covering up a connection the better for safety and maintanance! Some times they have to be taped but not on a power pannel!
Your upper half of the wiring looks good.
Tips:
Keep your main power feeds seperated and in line with each other in a logical lay out
Signal wires should be neatly grouped seperated clearly from the feed lines
Each contol branch and their signal lines should be clearly marked and run in a clear path to there controled actuator
FYI: Green cable/green with yellow strip should NEVER, I repeat NEVER be used as a current carrying conducter! big no no violated NEC codes around the plannet!
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Xeon, you are *never* to come and look at some of my 12V internal wiring on the cable 'earth' conductor point. Please. B^>
Rgds
Damon
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I know one to many people all most snuffed out from that me included, hiting a raw nerve is an understatment! Very dangerous, a bit less so if you are 100% off grid but still an unwise practice in my books!
I would urge any one to get the right conducters to replace it, what is a few extra dollars compared to the life of ones home or their actual life!
In futur it makes it to easy for mistakes, you're a bit tired and the brain whent on a mental vacation with a one way ticket and you need get the sucker wired in Asap, go to ground it next thing you know you have Arc burns, things are glowing white hot and on fire and you think "WTF?!?!" and then come to realize "Oh right I wired that to the possitive of my 1200AH bank"
It is the most dire mistakes that happen when we are tired as we tend to fall back on conventions at that point and not really think much of it. That why it is so critical to keep to proper codes and conventions.
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FYI: Green cable/green with yellow strip should NEVER, I repeat NEVER be used as a current carrying conducter! big no no violated NEC codes around the plannet!
Hey...
I colored it red and black with some tape here and there.....
What? That's not good enough? He he he... ;D
Besides it is what I had on hand, of that gauge, at the time... ;)
Are you saying I gotta go out and actually buy $5 worth of more wire?
(i dont know if i can aford that) he he he....
Tell ya what,
Once, I fully get this stupid Doc wattson thing worked out
Ill get some red and black wire in the green wire's place.
just for you... ;D
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FYI: Green cable/green with yellow strip should NEVER, I repeat NEVER be used as a current carrying conducter! big no no violated NEC codes around the plannet!
Hey...
I colored it red and black with some tape here and there.....
What? That's not good enough? He he he... ;D
Besides it is what I had on hand, of that gauge, at the time... ;)
Are you saying I gotta go out and actually buy $5 worth of more wire?
(i dont know if i can aford that) he he he....
Tell ya what,
Once, I fully get this stupid Doc wattson thing worked out
Ill get some red and black wire in the green wire's place.
just for you... ;D
One day when yer tired and sore and half awake and you need to work on the system, you'll thank your self for that! and so will your electrition!
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I hear ya, XeonPony, your just trying to "get my back" and keep me safe.
no arguments here...
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bottom left hand of the display should be Ap (along with a few others)
it's showing zero in the first image, which indicates no current has been put through it, since last power up
what's the highest figure you have seen there ?
zero....
but then the Doc was wired differently... til now...
I will see if it recorded anything when I get home.
It's not my circuit, it's straight from the doc website, IIRC Chris Olson pointed it out to me.
To Fab's credit: usually he is not wrong about these things.
so, I am hopeful that fab's circuit will work... We will see....
.
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Don't sweat it, Bruce is of the shoot first and ask questions later school of moderation. ;)
Only 'cause I care ::).
Fab, hows the bionic arm? you doing the rack-based torture chamber yet? Or did they go the give you a giant sized rubber band and send you home?
Yeah, I go for physical torture twice a week into the end of August, but it has actually all been amazingly painless.
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Fab, hows the bionic arm? you doing the rack-based torture chamber yet? Or did they go the give you a giant sized rubber band and send you home?
Yeah, I go for physical torture twice a week into the end of August, but it has actually all been amazingly painless.
My Dad had to get a rotator cuff repaired a couple of years ago and he had what we all called "The Electric Chair" in his livingroom for some time with daily theropy on it...
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Yeah I had a thing with four electrodes that had sticky pads around the shoulder, I had to turn it on five times a day for two weeks, If I turned it up too high it would make my whole arm jump and twitch, they said was to keep the muscle stimulated when I was not supposed to be using it at all.
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Tens unit, went through 4 of them in between both shoulders and my spine. Now they want to implant one in my lower back to limit the nerve pain coming from my legs. My power panel is laid out a bit neater Steadfast
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi226.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd248%2Fmaryalanab%2FChargecontrollerinverter.jpg&hash=f4804c78a9d7233b2557bc733ded69d988a4df71)
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Yup, had once after right knee surgery. Being the goof-ball while in class for medical equipment in FLA... we would turn it on and up to see how high it would go before leg flopped around :-)
Knee still working just fine,
Similar to those units you see on TV for 6-pack abs.
Amazing how much can be done with a little 9V battery!
Scary to see what an EKG looks like while the bugger is on :o
SF, I used a varnished piece of old kitchen cabinet to lay my stuff out on.
Wood is a great insulator .
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Yep, but it's actually spelled Tenn for some reason, it had the tenn setting then three other buttons for other things, I never used those though, this one just worked on two AA cell batts and they would last for five one hour treatments per day, I had two sets of rechargeable batts.
As for the wiring job, sorry SF but I could NEVER post a pic of a mess like that, and that is not a jab or being an ahole, it is unarguably a mess, jobs worth doing are worth doing right, and it don't take that much longer.
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I agree, once in a great while while im trouble shooting something I may use "jumper wires" and I almost never would take a picture of that. But this would mean Im having major problems with how some circuit didnt work out as intended.
When I embark on a new project as im making my bill of materials and such, its good to layout a "wiring harness's" according to a schematic that one can review with others, even if you have to go in, and perform surgery on the circuit, it came from a well thought out and competed design you had to commence.
Your flying by the seat of your pants and this may be fashonable, but its reckless.
Better you did not display those pictures. Im will to help you change them if you would like.
One thing that concerns me here, "yes, you are doing something, and new users may reference this".
It just doesnt help to make every mistake on purpose. Instead of the process having 6 steps, you've designed it with 80, thats not very efficient....
In any event carry on, use the comparison with other pictures members of the board :) are posting and emulate that...
Newbies would gain better from that approache.
Also, you're tower did turn out fantastic :) :) ;)
In that case your approache does work, but its a little much for the wiring and fuse protection side of things.
JW
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A good way to set up an RE system is to think of how it flows from the RE collectors (turbine/solar) to the AC end of the system and set it up that way.
From the RE in end, to the rectifier, to the batteries, to the battery charge control system, then from the batteries to the inverter then from the inverter to the AC breaker box.
It should be laid out in a logical fashion that flows from the DC end to the AC end, and it sure wouldn't hurt to use raceways or wire loom, you can get really nice plastic wire races at menards or home despot or lowes.
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I have different inverters now and twelve batteries and no wires are visable but doing it like this is really not that hard.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy6%2Ffabricator01%2FDSC01143.jpg&hash=7553894ba44793f7a8c002e2af8b6bece205594a)
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And now there is a 24 volt buss box, I can also pull 12 volts from it.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy6%2Ffabricator01%2FDSC01215.jpg&hash=1e198ca732e940ebdf135b6d8c1239f6cf5d94ad)
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Here is the doc wattson photo with a new "AP" reading it has not displayed before...
is it working? or is this just my imagination.
There was zero wind blowing so i could not see any other readings.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F580972_448408645180019_1297620594_n.jpg&hash=b10a9df8940ad495409323a66d22dd04a2f4e355)
very nice work fabs...nice and clean...
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What is that on the bottom pic- "Fab" Thats the tinyest air compressor ive ever seen, you should be ashame :0
Mines floating out on the pad we poured for it /slab/ using the main air line as a tether, is flex Stainless tubing...
[attach=1]
JW
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I have one of those... not as big...
what are you using yours for?
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(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F580972_448408645180019_1297620594_n.jpg&hash=b10a9df8940ad495409323a66d22dd04a2f4e355)
so...is the doc working? is it pulling info from the rectifier now?
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Yes, that is the peak amps produced since you turned it on. The W is the watts it's making right now and the A is the amps it is producing right now. the bottom right is of course the present battery voltage.
When the turbine is running the top two will constantly be changing and the bottom left records and displays peak amps peak watts and kWh produced since the last time the power was disconnected.
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cool.... now i can clean up all my connections...
make em purdy look'n fur yall...
the AP is the only thing that changed since yesterday.
will the turbine need to hit "cut in" before the doc will start displaying data on the top two meters?
or
are we passed that problem now.
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What is that on the bottom pic- "Fab" Thats the tinyest air compressor ive ever seen, you should be ashame :0
Mines floating out on the pad we poured for it /slab/ using the main air line as a tether, is flex Stainless tubing...
(Attachment Link)
JW
That is a dedicated compressor for the air brake on the turbine a 1/4" air line runs to the turbine, but I have found isn't necessary. I have a 120 gallon eight horse compressor out in the shop, those pics are in my basement, it's a handy little sucker though, it'll run a roofing nailer with one inch nails or a brad nailer.
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I have one of those... not as big...
what are you using yours for?
My shop-
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
Most of the technical data I have to follow is pretty dynamic and application specific, which we are beginning to see here with windpower.
I am a ASE Re-Certified Master Automobile Technician (spanning about 19 years) current till 2015 and ASE Certified Advance Level Specialist until 2016
Schematics are crucial, perhaps you should spawn a new thread covering your learning curve there.
Likewise if you could compartmentalize your experiences related to sound Tower construction based on what you learned interacting with the group, such a summary would benifit those new to windpower more directly to this and the other thread.
I realize this is the hard part, so put some additional thought into it and see what you come up with. The idea is to sidestep multiple inherent mistakes, that's when folks benifit, because they save time and energy, you have the right idea.
I once heard this from a friends teacher in high school, it was an art class, here's how it went-
Its better to execute a simple idea well, than a complicated idea poorly.
JW
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That is a dedicated compressor for the air brake on the turbine a 1/4" air line runs to the turbine, but I have found isn't necessary.
Hydralic brake with a servo on the master cyinder would be more energy eff. But you couldnt have any leaks, actually a manual lever could shut down without any power, are you using a piston caliper and a disk?
JW
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cool.... now i can clean up all my connections...
make em purdy look'n fur yall...
the AP is the only thing that changed since yesterday.
will the turbine need to hit "cut in" before the doc will start displaying data on the top two meters?
or
are we passed that problem now.
Time will tell, but yeah, it looks like you have it hooked up right now, is the bottom left display constantly changing between Ap Wp and kWh?
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That is a dedicated compressor for the air brake on the turbine a 1/4" air line runs to the turbine, but I have found isn't necessary.
Hydralic brake with a servo on the master cyinder would be more energy eff. But you couldnt have any leaks, actually a manual lever could shut down without any power, are you using a piston caliper and a disk?
JW
It's an air cylinder on and 18" drum/rolled strip, the shoe has 1/4" thick clutch lining material on it, it has worked perfectly for four years now in any wind I've tried it in, but I got my furling dialed so good it never gets used any more even in the worst storms.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy6%2Ffabricator01%2FDSC01104.jpg&hash=a5bd3f6a2597813f366d1f8508da2f2e9b1023d2)
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Fabricator you need more surface area for the 1/2inch width you have there for friction material, I would recommend a thin brakeband whatever you have there 10inch or more etc, and a good size anchor about 5/8in and the standard pull cable attachment,(force direction) when the cable is tightened the brakeband presses hard around the band drum or disc in this case.
If you could make the rotor braking width wider, you could use less cable force and achive more efficient manual braking.
I see no difference pulling a lever, thats pulling the braking cable, vs a hydralic or pneumatic system. A band brake system would work fine. You dont have enough friction brake material if you got into trouble with gaile wind gusts. All running that air compressor would do is drain your storage bank, while shuting down the turbine.
JW
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What im saying is, if the turbine only spins in one direction then the brake band would force the turbine to stop rotating.
What if the thing was furling, and your watching stuff come apart from the ground.
Seems to me the last time DanB pointed out a failure with one of his machines before the fire, it had to do with furling or the tail coming loose.
break downs/failures Danb
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146464.msg1002880.html#msg1002880
Tail failure Danb
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=146452.0
Its no problem to make a custom brakeband for what you have with that circumfial surface area on your braking rotor.
JW
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Time will tell, but yeah, it looks like you have it hooked up right now, is the bottom left display constantly changing between Ap Wp and kWh?
yes...yes it is...
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Cool, you got it man.
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What im saying is, if the turbine only spins in one direction then the brake band would force the turbine to stop rotating.
What if the thing was furling, and your watching stuff come apart from the ground.
Seems to me the last time DanB pointed out a failure with one of his machines before the fire, it had to do with furling or the tail coming loose.
break downs/failures Danb
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146464.msg1002880.html#msg1002880
Tail failure Danb
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=146452.0
Its no problem to make a custom brakeband for what you have with that circumfial surface area on your braking rotor.
JW
The drum is 1" wide, and like I said I haven't used it in three years so this one isn't getting changed, it's as good as it's gonna get, it has easily stopped the machine in 30mph winds.
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Well it looks good anyway Fab. How did you bend the ring.
JW
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Hi Fab.
Thats a masterclass machine . I see it for the first time.
Pneumatic brake . Altough you dont use it because of good furling adjust.
Battery bank 24 and 12 volt .
What is the propeller diam ? And tower height ?
Regards - Frans -
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Well it looks good anyway Fab. How did you bend the ring.
JW
I rolled it in a pinch roller at work.
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Hi Fab.
Thats a masterclass machine . I see it for the first time.
Pneumatic brake . Altough you dont use it because of good furling adjust.
Battery bank 24 and 12 volt .
What is the propeller diam ? And tower height ?
Regards - Frans -
It is based on the Dans 17' machine, right now it's stuck on a 25 foot tower because of a bureaucratic nightmare.
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that meter is easy to wire up and troubleshoot.just have to know how it funtions to trouble shoot it.so i will try to explane it as i understand it.the negitive(black)is used for current carrying and amp reading.the positve(red) is used for voltage reading and may be used for current carrying.volts times amps gives power in watts.u have to have both to get power calculations.in the meter ,the red wire runs straight threw and is tapped for volt reading.both ways that have been shown here will work.the way fab has stated a preferance for just seperates the volt seneing funtion from the current carrying funtion. when you had the meter wired straight threw and the meter died when the wind turbined died,suggest that there is a bad connection between the out of the meter and the battery.that connection should have keep the meter alive.additionly,check that your meter voltage and system volts are simular,or you have a volt reading problem.volts to red source or load should give volts on the meter.
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And BTW, 24.44 is pretty low, something like 27 would be a lot better in the float stage.
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Fab's new Doc wattson wiring does work,
but it only begins recording at "Cut in"...
I was there when the wind turbine briefly hit around 200 rpm..
and I actually watched live, as .2 watts went into the battery for around 2 seconds...
and the WPM actually displayed ".2" after that...
Does that sound right????
It takes quite a bit of summer wind to finally get the heavy turbine moving. I am thinking it might be time to start building the Light turbine with those falcon blades and the robo-moter....
maybe the lighter bird will more responsive and cut in more often...?
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no need for all that........ just build a new stator with a few more turns per coil..
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It might be a good idea to start just that.
I'm not certain how well those blades will be able to harvest as I've not seen anything with them that worked at all very well.
BUT your setup may work, we'll just need to try it and find out.
Cheers;
Bruce
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Steadfast:
So you have made .2 watts for 2 seconds. Is this the total amount since it has been up? How many watts have your solar panels made in the same time frame? Just wanting to compare for myself which is more practical based on real numbers output, hours of work input, initial cost, ect. Thanks.
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You have had this preconceived notion through out this entire thread that somehow a lighter turbine will make power where a heavier turbine won't.
That is absolutely wrong, sure you can take a kids pinwheel and puff a breath on it and it will turn where that breath will not even budge a twelve foot machine, but neither one will make any usable power either.
You have to get that whole idea out of your head, my seventeen foot machine will be turning when you can't even feel a breeze, but it's not making power, if I had a 2 foot machine that weighed 16 ounces it would be turning also but it would not be making any usable power either.
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Fab's new Doc wattson wiring does work,
but it only begins recording at "Cut in"...
I was there when the wind turbine briefly hit around 200 rpm..
and I actually watched live, as .2 watts went into the battery for around 2 seconds...
and the WPM actually displayed ".2" after that...
Does that sound right????
It takes quite a bit of summer wind to finally get the heavy turbine moving. I am thinking it might be time to start building the Light turbine with those falcon blades and the robo-moter....
maybe the lighter bird will more responsive and cut in more often...?
.
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But the bottom left continues alternate between wP Ap and kWh, and the bottom right continues to show battery state of charge continuously right?
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Fabricator is right. Just because a turbine is small does not mean it will work well in light winds. My 20 foot machine goes around sometimes when my anemometer is not turning. You can't get power from a very light wind if none is available. And Steadfast, when you start feeding us some performance data please include wind speed, rpm, voltage and wattage so we can see the whole picture. If the wind is low and your output relates to your wind speed correctly then we can see what is going on. Can't really comment on half of the factors. Dave M
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But the bottom left continues alternate between wP Ap and kWh, and the bottom right continues to show battery state of charge continuously right?
yup....
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You have had this preconceived notion throughout this entire thread that somehow a lighter turbine will make power where a heavier turbine won't.
That is absolutely wrong, sure you can take a kids pinwheel and puff a breath on it and it will turn where that breath will not even budge a twelve foot machine, but neither one will make any usable power either.
You have to get that whole idea out of your head, my seventeen foot machine will be turning when you can't even feel a breeze, but it's not making power, if I had a 2 foot machine that weighed 16 ounces it would be turning also but it would not be making any usable power either.
I hear ya...
I just hate the dog-days of summer.... >:(
Its like finally installing a water turbine in a usually moving stream,
that dries up the next day, in its yearly drought...
sucks big time...
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Still,,, it wouldn't hurt to get the other unit ready to go.
Will help keep the anxious-ness away.
Since the 100+ has driven all the humidity away here, I'm working on a nice little swamp cooler.
I have left over cooling/heating stuff from old Suburban, along with it's fans and 1/2 dozen different sized muffins fans.
My basement stays in the low 70s year round, I'd thought NOW would be a good time to run some water lines from a storage tub up through the cooling fins and let gravity feed water back down to tub. Condensation is biggest worry, but an old Coleman cooler with drain tube fed into a 18quart holder will give me spare water for inside plants.
It's just too darn hot! until night to work on solar panels!!
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building the Lbird IS GOING TO HAPPEN...
the real question is: WHEN?
The "Honey do" list is vast and wide! :'(
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Ahh-yes- time to catch up on that!
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You have had this preconceived notion throughout this entire thread that somehow a lighter turbine will make power where a heavier turbine won't.
That is absolutely wrong, sure you can take a kids pinwheel and puff a breath on it and it will turn where that breath will not even budge a twelve foot machine, but neither one will make any usable power either.
You have to get that whole idea out of your head, my seventeen foot machine will be turning when you can't even feel a breeze, but it's not making power, if I had a 2 foot machine that weighed 16 ounces it would be turning also but it would not be making any usable power either.
I hear ya...
I just hate the dog-days of summer.... >:(
Its like finally installing a water turbine in a usually moving stream,
that dries up the next day, in its yearly drought...
sucks big time...
I don't remember if anyone told you in this epic but, that is the way the gods of wind work, after you work your a$$ off to get a turbine flying the wind quits blowing for at least three weeks.
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I don't remember if anyone told you in this epic but, that is the way the gods of wind work, after you work your a$$ off to get a turbine flying the wind quits blowing for at least three weeks.
And no one has come up with an effective appeasement sacrifice, unless it's your solar controller
Turtle
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hmmm....
Did Americain Indians ever come up with a wind dance? :o
I fiquire, once I add the perminantly installed backup solar panels on the roof of my shed,
that the sun will also be blotted out, to match my present lack of wind....
or
maybe I will confuse the universe and while it is focused on blotting out the sun,
it will forget about holding back the wind...
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hmmm....
Did Americain Indians ever come up with a wind dance? :o
I fiquire, once I add the perminantly installed backup solar panels on the roof of my shed,
that the sun will also be blotted out, to match my present lack of wind....
or
maybe I will confuse the universe and while it is focused on blotting out the sun,
it will forget about holding back the wind...
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No, I don't think they did.
But, I know some Perpetual " wind bags " on this forum you can " Pop " to create you some. PM on the way once the list is filled.
:P
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PM on the way once the list is filled.
:P
Say what???
i am not understanding you.... :o
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SF
He's refering to people here on the forum who seem to have a limitless amount of air (meaning wind) to expel , SO if you NOT sure who you is, were to pop them then possibly the amount of wind being let go would cause enough wind to head towards your 'mill.
He's currently typing up a list of those "people" and will PM them to you.later once complied.
Hope that helps
Bruce S
It's getting deep!!
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Solar gods strike too, got my panels in on the 4th and have had 5 clear days since...
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We are having a 100 year drought here, maybe somebody needs to install some solar.
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I'm just wrapping up a long trip that took me thru central / west MI, northern IN, central IL, south and north east IA.
I swear, some places look OK, and some make me think I'm driving thru New Mexico, except for the dead corn and the trees.
Nice trip if you want to see some wind turbines. I've seen the old-style drag farm turbines (from fully operational to just cosmetic to demolished), a homebrew propper, commercial turbines, and even a sail fan turbine.
And damn the hot 100+ degree wind. I'm not going north any more this year. At least the plants in the south have AC (because they NORMALLY need it).
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I just went up and toured the new farm in Mason County MI they are all mid size Vestas, I'll start a thread with my pics.
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I just went up and toured the new farm in Mason County MI they are all mid size Vestas, I'll start a thread with my pics.
Nice. Looking forward to that.
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SF-
the only reliable way to get wind at your site is to prop your solar panels on the roof without any attachment, just to test them... though leave them up overnight, and i will bet money it gets windy enough to rip the turbine, and blow the panels from the roof and break them!
adam
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SF-
the only reliable way to get wind at your site is to prop your solar panels on the roof without any attachment, just to test them... though leave them up overnight, and i will bet money it gets windy enough to rip the turbine, and blow the panels from the roof and break them!
adam
And when that happens it will be in the darkest part of the night so that no video of the wind event can be recorded on video. I have found that having a shortout break switch is irrelevant, I only need to point my camera at my turbine, push "record" and the wind instantly stops blowing...
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And when that happens it will be in the darkest part of the night so that no video of the wind event can be recorded on video. I have found that having a shortout break switch is irrelevant, I only need to point my camera at my turbine, push "record" and the wind instantly stops blowing...
Nice... lol
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I purchased a 100watt solar panel On E-BAY ($185 postage included).
It arrive in the mail broken. The Chinese company that sold it to me sent me a replacement.
and told me to trash the broken one.
If you go to "solar" section here, you can read about the resurrection of the shattered panel.
Today, I mounted both of them to back up my turbine.
The resurrected solar panel and the wood that's gonna reinforce its back.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F268310_451447628209454_962988241_n.jpg&hash=46e40bb93ce111ba171de2fef6bef6b0d644c2dd)
Wood installed...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F268372_451448201542730_175137708_n.jpg&hash=0a357e0948a1fee5d3f10f16c6ae0f6aef5f3530)
Here is a photo of many things.
Yes we used an old bed frame.
Also, you can see the use of my black tar putty tape
both under the foot and to water proof the screw as it goes through the roof.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F388045_451462308207986_526342064_n.jpg&hash=cecaff91ece360afbb2f864c02a1f2cfab324490)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F311516_451462681541282_1170430379_n.jpg&hash=8f229781fc2db2c1385d4028d1d39deb938956c5)
I took this from on top of the shed roof.
You can Clearly see the diference between the resurrected panel and the replacement panel.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F309385_451463061541244_453556102_n.jpg&hash=3173457a809d72d867ca87eef083f389837be88e)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F536594_451462528207964_1206033982_n.jpg&hash=d5daf25690f9231cf673b65aeb9ad1c6caa6ca34)
The output of ONLY the 100watt replacement panel alone, in full sun.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F315425_449625031725047_522013823_n.jpg&hash=4872f74914a08c87cf140992765b4fc6012c145a)
And the Bottom line...
This is the combined output of BOTH panels in full sun!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F376802_451448694876014_44271276_n.jpg&hash=4087f24420bff78ccced2f32a6b4f4ecaa9ffd60)
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how many times did we tell you in this thread to use you money on solar, if you want to keep that roof from leaking, go to lowes and get some roofing mastic and brush it on the legs and the entire mount.
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Hi SF.
Buy a chainsaw and cut the trees .
Good for the turbine and panels .
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Hi SF.
Buy a chainsaw and cut the trees .
Good for the turbine and panels .
+1
You could use the wood for the gasifier...
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SF;
I for one am glad to see those batteries up to the correct voltages.
Nice!
Bruce S
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That's usually the first thing I look at hen I glance at a doc, those batts a a lot happier.
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SF;
I for one am glad to see those batteries up to the correct voltages.
Nice!
Bruce S
[/quote
Very True.
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on sunday:
I lowered my turbine to fix my wind meter to work better and repainted the turbine's tips red.
The two solar panels were pulling in 135 watts, the batteries loaded upto 14.25 volts and my load dump switch came on and the dump sytem was instantly painful hot, but not burning hot to the touch, (that yellow light was a-flicker-in) all day LONG... ghurd's load control switch works GREAT.... ;D You guys should all buy one or two from him! ;)
(I the wind turbine only cut in breifly ... like 2 seconds...)
I want to use that electricity for more than running a dump...
I still have that 35 feet of that 14awg wire... It is long enough to reach my Chicken coop too...
I know my chickens would LOVE to have a few fans running on them in the summer and perhaps some small heaters in the winter. I would also like to be able to light up the chicken coop or the coop's side shed at night from time to time.
So here are my NEW wireing idea plans...
The top drawing is using the inverter I already own inside my sealed shed with a outlet switch in the shed.
The bottom drawing shows a new 2nd inverter inside the shed as which also is the on/off switch. The difference is that the top one requires that I unlock my shed to switch on the inverter everytime I want to run the coop. The bottom all I gotta do is switch the power on on in the scoop shed.
and now, my questions... I can not decide which one to do...
The coop side shed has only chicken wire as one of it's walls and no door, would that pose a moisture problem for a new 1600 watt cobra inverter if I added one in the coop shed? (why the 1600 watt cobra inverter: I might as well be able to run power tools at the coop as well) The PVC houses the wire and is buried. if i use the top plans can i simply leave the inverter on forever inside the locked power shed?
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2Fc0.0.403.403%2Fp403x403%2F417522_454470834573800_1829072450_n.jpg&hash=b2d3d3740c38c774e743946d9a0da584cfc59b9c)
Site informitive photos:
Two "young bird" and/or "Bad bird" holding pens inside the coop shed.
(new product of my wife's recent honey do list)
you can see the chicken wire wall that seperates the side shed from the chicken run.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F603575_452033768150840_198579872_n.jpg&hash=07dc0fa07274a3e27497482cc489836590685c53)
The out side of the finished side shed:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F564611_452028678151349_482775807_n.jpg&hash=c6d9050c47004a389356a03edcab0d7939023f0b)
For fun, here is a link to a video tour of my coop before the new chicken holding pens where added into the coop's side shed...
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146857.0.html
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It's perfectly fine to just run a circuit off your breaker box in the main shed to the chicken coop, you really don't need conduit either you could get direct burial, I go 12/2 w/g if you are thinking about a possible heater.
I believe the NEC says at least 30" deep, with that red danger tape buried above it.
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SF now who really built that coop ????? [honey]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xBiSp6rQM0&feature=player_embedded
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as fab states, you're far better running ac out to the shed. in case you're not aware, 12VDC does not travel well. play around with a voltage drop calculator. guessing the run would be ~45' TOTAL. 1500w inverter with 4/0 copper would get you close to an acceptable voltage drop....
12/2 UF w/ground can be directly buried. that'd be my choice!
adam
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SF now who really built that coop ????? [honey]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xBiSp6rQM0&feature=player_embedded
yeah, Thats a pretty cool video...
ya just can't complain about haveing to watch a babe in a bikini doing carpentry work!
And ... She did a fantastic job of it too!
Although, I wore steel toed boots when building mine...
BTW: I really liked the part when she is installing the roof... :o
OUCH!
Now, That was pretty darn hot...
But I think she knew that too... ;)
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as fab states, you're far better running ac out to the shed. in case you're not aware, 12VDC does not travel well. play around with a voltage drop calculator. guessing the run would be ~45' TOTAL. 1500w inverter with 4/0 copper would get you close to an acceptable voltage drop....
12/2 UF w/ground can be directly buried. that'd be my choice!
adam
Well then if AC travels better, maybe I should just go with The first option?
This way I convert my DC into AC before I send it to the coop.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F409688_454769367877280_1300536765_n.jpg&hash=0fa054036776017bf64a2427269e0968f28156af)
so are you guys saying I dont need to sheath the 14awg in PVC pipe?
BTW: This is all STILL "Honey do" list activities...
To her credit, my wife asked me when I was going to get around to getting that robot servo made into the "LBIRD".
I told her as soon as you release me from "honey do bond servant" status...
She said.... "Soon, but not yet."
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there is a few ways to get power from A to B via underground.
1)12/2 UF (underground feeder?) this is gray jacketed cable that is rated for direct burial with no conduit. though i think it is supposed to be 30" down.
2) pvc conduit with whatever wire you want to shove into it. i think it is supposed to be 18" down??
though you have a scrap of 14/2, it really is pretty thin wire. it will give you ~15A @ 120v worth of "coop" power. you had mentioned using the dump function of your controller to create options in the coop. if that's the case, you're back to running 12v (14v) out there, and that 14/2 isn't going to carry squat at that voltage and wire length.
there are ways with relays and a dedicated dump inverter to get 120v out there as a pure dump function, though that gets expensive and a bit tricky. i also don't think you've got the dump wattage available to do much with it anyways.
back to one of your original thoughts, i'd paralell a 12v light bulb with a separate mosphet like a porch light for the shed. this way, if it's a windy night time storm, you can atleast look out the window and see a light and know at a glance that your batteries are full! atleast, that way, you'll get some small "feature" while you're wasting that excess power.
adam
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there is a few ways to get power from A to B via underground.
2) pvc conduit with whatever wire you want to shove into it. I think it is supposed to be 18" down??
adam
I think I will go with this option... Simply because I HATE digging!
you had mentioned using the dump function of your controller to create options in the coop. if that's the case, you're back to running 12v (14v) out there, and that 14/2 isn't going to carry squat at that voltage and wire length.
I don't understand why this is the case... :o
A simple lawn drop/extension cord will run my biggest power tools out at the coop, off my other powered shed, and that drop cord is thinner than my 14/2.
One is hard wiered and buried (14AWG) , the other is merely plugged in and laying on the ground (drop cord)...
What's the difference? ???
there are ways with relays and a dedicated dump inverter to get 120v out there as a pure dump function, though that gets expensive and a bit tricky. I also don't think you've got the dump wattage available to do much with it anyways.
adam
nah... you misunderstood me...
I want to be able to use the power to benifit the chickens,
rather than just wasting it on the Load Dump
Sure, I want to hook up the coop, but not thru the load dump controller.
So if I can use that electricity during the day to run some coop fans and the like,
I might be able to keep my batteries near full, while hopefully keeping the load dump from needing to ever come on during the daytime.
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Do NOT use a separate ground rod at the coop, there must be only one ground on the breaker box your inverter is hooked to, branch circuits do not get separate ground rods.
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SF;
I'm a little confused by the post of wanting to use the dump(ed) power versus using the power.
Do you (A) want the fans to only come on when the controller is dumping? or (B) use some trickle power to run a few let's say muffin fans for the birds in the summer then heat in winter?
Can you clarify ?
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I don't understand why this is the case...
A simple lawn drop/extension cord will run my biggest power tools out at the coop, off my other powered shed, and that drop cord is thinner than my 14/2.
One is hard wiered and buried (14AWG) , the other is merely plugged in and laying on the ground (drop cord)...
What's the difference?
12VDC versus 120VAC. there's ~10X the power carrying ability with 120v compared to 12v. trying to run any distance with any amps with 12v is either futile, or very expensive with lots of copper.
why not just use a GFCI protected extension cord for the coop usage? simple, easy, and cheap!
adam
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SF: I think you should probably assume that you won't have much spare energy when you most would like it (eg cold and dark and not windy), so just dumping it may be cheapest and safest (since your dump must never fail when it is needed).
Just to keep this in perspective.
Rgds
Damon
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take 1200 watts at 120 volts, it is 10 amps, take 1200 watts at 12 volts it is 100 amps. As current draw rises voltage drop goes up. 14/2 is no where near rated for carrying 12 volts to an inverter unless it is a little 300 watt unit and even then the voltage drop may be to high.
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I think he's past the DC thing, he's just too cheap to buy 50' of 12/2 wg romex.
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SF;
I'm a little confused by the post of wanting to use the dump(ed) power versus using the power.
Do you (A) want the fans to only come on when the controller is dumping? or (B) use some trickle power to run a few let's say muffin fans for the birds in the summer then heat in winter?
Can you clarify ?
I have abandoned the idea of useing the load dump controller for anything but the load dump I've aready built.
Now that I know DC wont make the 35 ft trip.
I plan to connect the coop to an underground AC line coming out of my inverter, which I have already installed inside my otherpower shed. I just have to remember to turn on the inverter on sunny forcaste days, and use low wattage AC fans inside my coop so I don't overdraw my batteries.
hmmmm, lets assume I turn on the coop... go to work... and the day becomes overcaste, contrary to the "sunny Forcast" that day.... Is there some sort of switch that will automatically shut off the power coming out of my inverter before my batteries get overdrawn by the fans in the coop? Do you guys think my inverter may already have this feature?
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I think he's past the DC thing, he's just too cheap to buy 50' of 12/2 wg romex.
yup... ;D
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It's called low voltage dropout (LVD). But usually set much too low to be what you want. There's a gulf between dumping excess and cutting off because you're about to ruin your batteries, maybe the difference between 90% and 10% of usable stored capacity (even if ~95% and 55% of theoretical lead-acid capacity).
Rgds
Damon
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I wonder if Ghurd could design a low voltage dropout (LVD).
that can be dialed down to shut off at a certain a voltage level, via a "trim Pot",
much like his load dump switch which has a "trim Pot" and can be dialed to turn on the load dump when the batteries hit any point (like 14.25V), but works backwards.
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Hi
The inverter I have is 600W pure sine wave and it switches off when the battery gets to 11.5 V OK to protect the inverter but lethal for the batteries. I only witnessed it once when I forgot to switch the inverter off, I clipped a battery charger conditioner on it very quickly. Does your Doc Watson have a programable low battery alarm on it? At least if it's making a noise you may have a chance.
Brian.
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my cobra inverter already does that...
It puts out an alarm when the batteries hit 55%.
(I know this because I was there when it happened) "hey, whats that sound?"
I just want it to shut off instead of just making the alarm buzz...
I wonder how that can be done.
It is obvious that a switch of some sort is being automatically thrown to make the alarm sound,
why can't that switch be modified to turn the thing off...?
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I know you want to use wind power but, this seems like a perfect situation for a low power solar fan? Not sure about heat.
gww
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I just started a thread, in the control section, to discuss the development of a low voltage dropout switch divice...
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146979.0.html
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gww: I think you could be onto something there...
Rgds
Damon
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This is how I dump power, on the AC side where it can actually be used for something, http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/relay-driver The thing is almost limitless in what it will do. You simply hook it to your batteries and through a lap top give it the parameters you want it to trigger a relay and it does what ever you want it to do, it's got four channels, each channel infinitely programmable.
When my 24 volt bank reaches a set point the driver triggers a relay that turns on 120 volt water heater elements in a water tank using 120 volts directly from my main inverter.
It would do exactly what you want it to do, but, of course it's a LOT more expensive than Glens controller, but like I said the settings are infinite.
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I agree...
you see,
Glenn already makes a trim pot dialible control switch which turns something on...
how hard would it be for Glenn to make a trim pot dialible control switch which turns something off???
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Take the inverter apart, find the alarm, take it out and substitute a normally closed relay, then run one of the on off switch wires with it the relay.
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gww: I think you could be onto something there...
Rgds
Damon
This is how I dump power, on the AC side where it can actually be used for something, http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/relay-driver The thing is almost limitless in what it will do. You simply hook it to your batteries and through a lap top give it the parameters you want it to trigger a relay and it does what ever you want it to do, it's got four channels, each channel infinitely programmable.
When my 24 volt bank reaches a set point the driver triggers a relay that turns on 120 volt water heater elements in a water tank using 120 volts directly from my main inverter.
It would do exactly what you want it to do, but, of course it's a LOT more expensive than Glens controller, but like I said the settings are infinite.
Take the inverter apart, find the alarm, take it out and substitute a normally closed relay, then run one of the on off switch wires with it the relay.
No way Fab. It's Definitely possible and good idea. BUT, it's either "G Dubs" Idea with Solar Fans, as I have Solar Lighting on my Shed (only good really for night applications, whicha re few and far between.) and a 45LED 60ft Distance, Motion Detector Flood Light on my Garage ($35 at costco a year or so ago) that are Perfect in design and would be a great idea for SF's Coop Girls! OR the Sweet little "Relay Driver" that you linked in...
SF, In all due respect friend, you can hope for perfect sun and wind all day, but in real world conditons, I honestly think that you won't get much IF Any at all dumping if you are visiting your shed off and on. Maybe, just maybe if you are not doing anything during the week and let whatever watts charge up your Batt-Bank and then dump into this Coop Situation that you are thinking of... But When will it be? how often? You are seriously better off getting some little solar power fans to do the job! I seriously think that you and the Coop Girls will be better off taking this path.
Why waste so much time trying to figure out something that there has already been rememdies suggested for? You will free up more of your time (and time for the Honey-Dip) wityh the remedies. You may even get some "points" for it in the end for saving headache, cash and time! Trust me!! ;) Working Hard is a good thing, but working Smart is So much more productive!
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SF;
In the case of LVD, I have got to say what the old timers would've said already ;).
GOOGLE is your friend!
Go look over in the control section, search for LVD, you'll see that the GHURD gold standard as been able to be built as a LVD for a bunch of years ago!!
Meaning YES the GHURD already can do that!!
He's a very busy person this year, so he may NOT be reading or keeping up on these, drop him a PM or email.
while waiting for a reply go searching/reading the control section , it's ALL there ;)
Bruce S
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cool thanks...
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After posting that I saw you had already reached out in the controls section:-)
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Dumb thread hijack question: computer slang, what does IMHO mean?
sorry
gww
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In My Humble Opinion
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Damon
Thank you
gww
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Dumb thread hijack question: computer slang, what does IMHO mean?
sorry
gww
In My Humble Opinion
Or In My Honest Opinion... Although I do like the reference of "Humble"...
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Everybody I know reads it as "Humble".
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Everybody I know reads it as "Humble".
Noted...
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sf,when the inverter starts the low voltage alarm,your batterys are about half a volt above the inverter shut off point.if you had not turned the inverter off,it would have contioned beeping as the voltage contiuned to fall to the cutt-off point and when it got there,shut the inverter off.it will then stay off for a bit and sample voltage to determine if it will turn on again.
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Are you sure that inveter has low voltage shutdown?
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its a cobra,high and low volatge protection,nice line of inverters.i like them.
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OK, I've had no experience with those.
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The Cobra's auto cut off is at 9.5V.... that is WAY TOO LOW...
Ghurd said they where designed that way to protect
the inverter not the battery. If cobra cared even a tiny bit
about our batteries they would have spent the $0.40 on a trim pot
Or added another $2 switch with the option to shut off at
12.2 or 9.5....
Ghurd and I have been in phone contact and he is divising his own 12.2v
switch that will work with the cobra's phone "remote" jack in
Meanwhile... I will be burying wire and hooking up the coop today.
Pictures to fallow.
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Follow, fallow is a piece of land allowed to grow wild, I wish the spell check feature could be fixed, the aggregate IQ of this board would go up by at least 50%.
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Hey fabricator, I resemble that remark.
gww
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Hi
Perhaps we could start a thread with the most often missspelt or quoted words.
Fallow, Wench etc..
I have been told my spelling defies gravity.
I have a spelling checker.
It came with my PC.
It clearly marks in my revue
Miss takes I cannot sea.
I ran this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased to no
It's perfect in its weigh
Cause my checker tolled me sew.
Oh! dear.
Brian.
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LOL, I'm by no means a perfect speller but some things are to obvious to ignore.
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if yuo can raed tihs, you hvae a sgtrane mnid, too.
Can you raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can.
i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs forwrad it.
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iH knarF and baF
Regards snarF
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I know we kind of Hijacked the thread OOPS
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Solar Powering the Chicken Coop:
The plans:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F484013_457086924312191_1802958565_n.jpg&hash=b133c07c1e3b27e485503e19b1f121c73fc60e56)
First Bury the electric line from power plant to coop. (AC travels better than DC) I used a tiller to loosen up the ground. And laid out my 50ft pvc incased 12awg wire.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F574556_457086230978927_1672762631_n.jpg&hash=f4519a5cf8bfe0555984364513b7b97b6548e65d)
Next, Dig out the 18" trench, bury the pvc sheathed wire, star covering it up.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F603560_457086844312199_377579800_n.jpg&hash=fdec9f66f753982d3734dab82fa31511ad929b9f)
Yeah, this digging thing, SUCKS Big Time!
I discovered that ditch diggers are REAL MEN... Unlike me... but that's fine by me too.
If "being a Man" must involve ditch digging, I want to be a kept wife.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F300770_457087254312158_1472275609_n.jpg&hash=8ab7085d69400d036db750371c51e4ca059c8864)
As I was hooking up the electrical outlet boxes in the chicken coop shed, I noticed I had spectators.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F524403_457088354312048_1402351211_n.jpg&hash=c6fb0c9cc574b4a239824ffffdbd088f7681508d)
When I was done, I was just SICK of everything and decided not to take
any more pictures... So, I shot this quick video of the improvements instead.
[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/jWKfFfnWYJY[/VIDEO]
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That sure don't look like a Texas 18" depth.... :P
Might as well insulate and put some windows in for them chickens now.... And I thought my Pops was crazy when he brought the pony in when it was tooooo hot outside. Damn thing got to where he ate dog food.... Darn horse ( Shetland Pony ) was named " Sugarbabe " but should have been "spoiled rotten"....
J/K, but I gotta ask what the fans do for them chickens? Do chickens sweat? Ok, still poking fun....
In all seriousness, be careful those fans don't clog with dust and " burn " literally up your chickens... You may wanna put some sort of thermal protection in them if they don't have any already. Also, I wonder if you'd be better by moving those fans to move in cooler air from a shaded area or an area with some moisture ( watered yard or garden ) to reduce the inside temperature of the coop.
Just a thought or two, really though, no need to answer as I'm just poking fun.
Looks good and keep up the good work.
*ONE LAST THOUGHT*
Be careful with those fans going, the may no longer come home to roost or, may stop laying eggs. Our chickens wouldn't lay eggs sometimes if we got a new dog. Seems they hate change or not. It may have been us, who knows.
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cool thanks...
Speaking of cool, are those blades turning yet? Sure would be nice to have an update or see some numbers. Have you been working on your L Bird? Truckman
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yes, I actually am getting some wind now, they are running FINNALLY... and charging my batteries too...
I am still having a crappy time getting measurments on my STUPID DOC Wattson...
but when the wind gets really going say 15 mph, I can stand there and actually watch and see my battery's % charge lights going up 10% every 20 seconds... mean while NOTHIONG shows on the Doc... it is so annoying.
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As for the Light Bird made with the servos:
I have several honey do projects i MUST hit before i can have ME TIME to build that smaller bird.
1. I have to finish our "Camper's new Lean too" project she through at me this weekend!
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F557435_4154535672944_1769532131_n.jpg&hash=005968507dd417f7ee3ea49d8caa2421a5dc5d4c)
2. I have to replace two posts on my front porch, sand the porch,
repaint the porch and re-stan the porch's deck... uuuuugh.... :-\
3. I have to mount and "house wire" two large 140 watt solar panels on top the kitchen's roof and install a new "Kitchen Island with multiple outlets" inside the Kitchen, which will house an "emergency solar powerplant" which will hopefully be able to pull a kitchen appliance or two perminantly off the grid... as well as act as SHTF power source in the kitchen if the power goes out.
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solargeneratorsforsale.com%2Fpowerstore-image-tiny.jpg&hash=d2a79d2f72b1763baad69ab8a7ab8fa3a7792386)
THEN and only THEN will i get some time to myself build the small turbine...
I have been stuck busting my butt outside every weekend now for 8 months!! :(
.
.
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but when the wind gets really going say 15 mph, I can stand there and actually watch and see my battery's % charge lights going up 10% every 20 seconds... mean while NOTHIONG shows on the Doc... it is so annoying.
It's possible you got a bad Doc Wattson. I've seen bad ones that don't work for some reason, right out of the box.
As you get into winter and get rid of the leaves on the trees, plus reduced daytime ground heating causing low level turbulence, your turbine will start to work better. My wind turbines, even on 80 and 90 foot towers, produce double the energy in the winter that they do in the summer months. Which is nice because they more than make up for the shorter days and drastically reduced solar output in the winter. Here where we live we can go for six weeks at a time in the winter and only get 2-3 kWh/day from 2.7 kW of installed solar capacity. But the wind turbines do 10-15 kWh/day each
--
Chris
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Two more steps completed towards "honey do list" freedom.
The Lean To is finished:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F548301_4184155653425_1934305431_n.jpg&hash=f45c726c55e21ff268991886d7594b3643a0628b)
The front porch Pillars are replaced and painted and the shutters are also painted:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F282205_4183510877306_390356689_n.jpg&hash=e652e7c859e80e7341e743927641fd59372ceddc)
The heavy turbine is still making power:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F384116_4183309112262_6063673_n.jpg&hash=cf87f8893ca0ed5dfcf451d40e0a9289c8251e0d)
next...I have to install power inside the lean to and then install the big solar panels on top of the Kitchen, run the line into the kitchen and power up my solar generator which will be installed inside of a new kitchen Island...
Then "Freedom" is MINE again!
.
.
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Here is a MUCH better Picture of the "Lean Too"
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F389939_4184134372893_453834982_n.jpg&hash=f650c1e7c38e2245cb7ed22e9105db683ad4431a)
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Yeah if you're interested in lean too's, is this a blog or a wind power project?
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Indeed: if we're off the topic of wind, please consider starting a diary thread instead.
Rgds
Damon
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Indeed: if we're off the topic of wind, please consider starting a diary thread instead.
Rgds
Damon
Right...
however I had to show you guys the "Lean too" to show you HOW the Wind turbine is now powering that "Lean too" as well as now charging the battery in my Camper as well...
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F225886_473740192646864_179383896_n.jpg&hash=8099c47059554dbff8c6a59e049ac9282f56114d)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F543209_473741672646716_1887004197_n.jpg&hash=800f1872d69297b3a496e42d3511689025e9c333)
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F255459_473741525980064_1769315491_n.jpg&hash=cd3c1ea979e357d620a1b39ed4b2de0d508d39a2) Here is the light it has an new fangled LED bulb in it with a 4 hour/day 25 year life span that burns 1/4 of the power of a piggy tail light bulb. Perfect for wind/ solar power.
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Ok... Im Back...
I've been wondering all year why I have been getting such crap output from Chris' Axial Alternator.
even thought my Doc Wattson was busted because it displayed NOTHING!
Even the steady winds from Sandy produced only a little bit of cut in power.
Cussing,
I lowered my turbine, last weekend,
I discovered that one of the Phase output posts was raised and "wiggle" loose. :o
Upon futher inspection, I discovered it was totally disconnected.
All this time, I have been generating on only 2 of my 3 phases!
Making only 2/3 what I should have all year, killing my crucial "Cut IN" factor
to happen less than 80% 0f the time it could have been happening! >:(
I easily pulled the post out, drilled down to the post contact with a 1/4 inch wide bit, and sodlered the original post to the previously severed contact. I then epoxied the hole shut around the now working Phase!
WHAT A DIFFERENCE! :o
My Doc was not broken at all!
Now we are cooking with GREASE!
Starting Saturday, on the 1st,
I will start posting REAL numbers for the whole month of December!
Perhaps you guys can help me make sense of them?
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hey SF;
Good to see you back posting, I wondered how it would do in those winds!
Bummer about the wire.
Glad you quickly got it sorted out.
Post the numbers we'll help!
Cheers;
Bruce S
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Quickly? Ha.
It took me 6 months
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Here are the numbers for December
Which were recorded on my Doc Wattson:
6.4 Ah
17.52 AP
.08 KWh
Ave wind speed - Raleigh, NC: 7.6 MPH
Max gusts - Raleigh, NC: 24.2 MPH
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steadfast-
so you generated about two pennies worth of electricity in a month... not try to sound like a debbie downer, but rather realistic.
this was done with a top notch real deal axial. i'm sure you can see the light now as we were all naysaying a redelco.
i know that you enjoy your wind project, and i respect that you enjoy it as a hobby. i'm glad you are finally reaping (small) benefits from your hard work.
your heavy tree area and short tower cut into your production a ton. this is why we gave you a hard time with your plans in the first place. but, if you're happy, i sure am! i'm sure you have learned leaps and bound from your install.
merry new years!
adam
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6.4 Ah
17.52 AP
.08 KWh
a peak of 17.5A is very healthy - that's over 200 watts, 230 if the battery is at 13.2v
but 0.08KWh implies that it's only managed to briefly cut in, assuming December is pretty windy that's a dreadfully low output
am still not convinced this is setup correctly - how often does the beast spin ?
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SF;
Thanks for the update!! Knowing you're like St. Louis in a 1 maybe 2 wind zone, those are pretty great numbers.
Thanks again!!
Bruce S
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bruce s
The only differance was our gust in MO got in the 60 mph range last month. Took out my little 24' tower that I had just put up. I knew inch and a half pipe was too small and attached to shed at 8' and guyed at around 19' it still bent the pipe and put the turbine down.
steadfast
Thanks for posting the numbers. I agree with bruce, your wind is probly close to mine. with out making me read the previous post, could you refrease my memory, did you use the built in shunt in the doc watson or did you put a bigger one on it?
Also how is your ghurd controller working out? I was finely able to see mine in action with wind and it seemed to be working great. Although I set it with a car first and my guage which I am not sure of shows it diverting at about 14 volts insted of 14.4 volts. I left it that way cause my gage read the same on two different cars besides the turbine.
Thanks for posting
gww
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those are pretty great numbers.
really ?
which ones ?
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I was wondering the same thing except for the learning a lot of stuff it looks like an abject failure to me.
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I hear ya Fabs & GWW.
I usually hit cut in around 21 MPH.
Which does not happen so often.
Useing the numbers,
what do you guys guesstimate the output was back when
The wind hit 45 mph during sandy.
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21 mph? IIRC, that generator reached 12.7 volts @ about 250 rpm. That little rotor should be spinning that fast at 6 mph. Are you sure you don't have the blades bolted on backwards? The concave side is facing the wind, right?
--
Chris
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(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/599407_447565015264382_1087794948_n.jpg)
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the blades look right. any chance your still running on 2 of the three phases? something seems amiss.
adam
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Sean_ork & Fab;
Owing to the fact he came so far knowing very very little, and that like most of Missouri, he's in a crap wind zone; with trees in his way and getting any numbers means great to me.
This means it's up right and working, IF he had a full fledged data logger we could better see the numbers for the gusts.
GWW;
Bummer about the tower. While watching the wind blow crap off most everyone's roof around here in St.Louis; including a tree branch nearly taking out my 2010 I was wondering how well even a few lawn arts would do.
I was glad to see that none of my solar panels tried to take flight, the do it right the first time still works ;D, the extra money left over from Christmas means more new panels.
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he's in a crap wind zone; with trees in his way and getting any numbers means great to me.
This means it's up right and working,
oh come on, those trees arent that dense
don't these numbers ring any alarms with you ?
''.08 KWh - Ave wind speed - Raleigh, NC: 7.6 MPH''
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Hi
Trees don't need to be dense to screw the wind up, they generate turbulance which can affect the wind for some distance, plus his turbine is not that high so he can still be suffering from ground effect. I get winds that feel as if they are trying to lift you off your feet, but my turbine at 28ft just swivels on the yaw bearing. When you hold a directional anemometer the display looks like a fruit machine the numbers change so fast.
Brian
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your wind cut-in speed tells its own story.voltage line losses are killing your cut-in.basiclly the bigger your wire running to the batteries,the lower your cut-in.use some big wire and you will see your cut-in come down and the mill producing some power a higher percectage of time.use the biggest wire that will fit threw your stub and then transtion to #4 in the tower and down to your stop switch.this will lower your cut-in.
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i still think something is wrong. .08Kwh
that's 80w for an hour, or 20w for four hours... in a MONTH
or even 1w for 80 hours...
seem way too low to me. even in a terrible wind zone, especially in the middle of the winter!
SF- do you have any data for the month of december from your weather station? high wind, average wind ect??
adam
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At home my nice little MotorWind only even turns about 10% of the time (when I was last measuring).
Urban wind is just hopeless for most.
Which is not to say there isn't something wrong also, that should be fixed.
Rgds
Damon
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I'd bet a pound to a penny that something is wrong
but if that's really all it's going to produce then it's time to drop it and donate the mill to someone who can make productive use of it
currently this is just a vanity project
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One man's vanity is another's lawn art and/or DIY fun.
People build lots of stuff that isn't even intended to "produce" anything of value; this is at worst no more than a pleasant folly.
Rgds
Damon
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well I doubt the OP would have received so much help, nor such generous donation if ''lawn art and/or DIY fun'' was the stated goal
and I'd quite like a pint of whatever the poster who said this was drinking ........
''those are pretty great numbers''
I'll say it again - that turbine setup should either be fixed (if there is a problem) or the head of it passed onto someone who can make productive use of it - in the same spirit as the OP received it
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Sean_ork;
Then go to the nearest store pick up a 1/2gallon of 1% milk and pour yourself a nice cold tall one. >:(
Then go re-read the entire post and see where SF came from and where he is now, then stop take a minute to think, really think about what you're posting.
Then come back and post a little more, about how a waste of time, money, energy would be wasted times 2 , if SF was to even contemplate doing what you're suggesting.
I'm pretty sure if ChrisO didn't already know what the outputs could be, he would not have even offered the mill.
SEE, there's a difference between seeing what's right here and now and what's to come.
Not only did SF learn what a correctly built mill looks like, how to put it up and "possible" output, but if there's a problem he can work it out too.
This coming from the guy who put that quote up there.
DO you have any helpful suggestions to SF other than give it to someone else? As I quickly tire of your posts of this nature, so either post helpful suggestions or go play somewhere else.
PS>> In the beginning this was not only a mill going up but it was to be a learning challenge too , Lawn art or not.
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well I've read your post a few times and still cant see where you've mentioned what's so great about those numbers
celebrating failure and mediocre performance isn't my cup of tea - however in your capacity as a moderator you will for sure have the last wood on this topic if you so wished but I still cannot for the life of me see what is great about any of those numbers
If these numbers are correct then SF has learnt a lot, including now knowing that no productive use can be made out of the wind available on his plot - so, really what is the point of having a mill running there, when productive use of the donated components could be made by another member ?
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As a GM I could have the last word and put you in Read-Only in one keystroke, BUT what purpose would that serve? One of the others can.
I however see the amount of time you didn't take to react to my post, which tells me you didn't get or understand what I was trying to point out.
SO as an enforcing GM, I will ask you NOT post anymore to this section about his mill unless YOU have constructive/useful suggestions such as how to test for a bad phase, what to go looking for on his connections.
WE the mods are enforcing these rules
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read only stuff ....whats that mode exactly ?
the axial seems to have a problem ....something wrong ..... 21mph cut in is just way to fast ....
8 mph sounds better .....maybe the T bird with a cut in of 80 rpm might have suited better ......everything has got a bit vague ......not a good result
problem is this thread doesent help anyone looking into wanting to spend with their hard earned cash ....
hurricane wind power has an option now ....i still would,nt be temped though .....
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"read only" is when a member misbehaves, and is put in a time out, so to say for a while. the member can read, but not post.
SF- if i remember right, the rectifiers are on the turbine head? if so, would it be easy for you to put them in the shed with a three wire coming down the tower? then they could be tested very quickly and often. got an old 12 gauge extension cord lying around? 10 gauge would be better, but spendy and more rare to find around.
adam
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maybe the member is just calling it....as it is :)
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Better research here about Hurricane Wind Power, it is aptly names, you need a hurricane to generate anything.
the axial seems to have a problem ....something wrong ..... 21mph cut in is just way to fast ....
8 mph sounds better .....maybe the T bird with a cut in of 80 rpm might have suited better ......everything has got a bit vague ......not a good result
problem is this thread doesent help anyone looking into wanting to spend with their hard earned cash ....
hurricane wind power has an option now ....i still would,nt be temped though .....
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;)...well i,m not trying to promote the red delco , far from it ...but anyone researching the red delco on this thread wont find much to suggest that a decant axial with a proper blade set is necessarily any better ....
so i hope Steadfast gets some better production figures ( finds the problem )
because its far from a garden ornament .....looking back at the pics its got a fall zone that seems to include your neibhours property and possibly your own house , its a substantial lump of metal and wood thats going to need periodic maintenance ...often when things dont function well they can be neglected over time ...
having a fall zone that includes your neibhour is pretty unusual.....keep a close check on those guy wires
i do hope you get the cut in problem sorted......theres nothing worse than a windmill that doesent move
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I second the fall zone concern. Big liability risk. My zoning requires the height not exceed the distance from the base to the property line likely for that very reason. Beyond that, a flying blade is not going to honor any property line. Makes me hesitant to put one up even if I adhere to the zoning rules, especially with kids playing next door.
Those very concerns caused me to switch gears and go with solar. Maybe I'll play with a VAWT to get my wind fix once the solar is up and running, key word being "play", in my 110' wide back yard :-\
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Hi
Some time ago last year a post was put on here with a bit of pipe clamped to the side of a shed, there were a lot of detractors (me included) who pointed out the dangers of the thing. SF didn't go away he listened and when the bit of pipe bent he posted pictures of the failure. He came in for criticism and the inevitable I told you so comments. After some of the photos he posted, the site itself came in for more comments on the poor quality of the site for wind, but SF was determined to stick it out.
Over a while he built another proper mast, was given a decent turbine, and put it in the air. He now has produced enough power to charge a battery and run a light or so. That in itself is an achievement.
Now those few months later he knows enough to trouble shoot a faulty stater and the confidence to drop and raise his mast safely. He also knows the type of questions to ask to be given the help he needs. In doing so he has managed to earn a modicum of respect from several people on here, if only for his perseverance. The site he has is crap and and very turbulent, he has trees and buildings all round him.
So when I see people being critical who weren't posting on here when he started I feel strongly enough to comment.
I live in a turbulent poor wind site, my turbine is only 200W (Commercially made) when the trees at the end of my garden are bending over I only see a few watts, though I have seen it double its rated output. It is now shut down waiting for me to remove it.
Brian.
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sorry...i was,nt trying to be critical and yes i didnt post much or early in this thread or the redelco one
i certainly dont know enough about mast construction to give advise but having seen the aftermath of a total collapse lately it,s changed my perspective on guyed masts ... .....all hindsight now i know... :-\
thats why i suggested he keep a close eye on his guy wires.....i,m sure Steadfast checked out the ordnance on mills for his area , .....
but the 21mph cut in posted lately could indicate an overspeeding axial...thats sitting on a tower footing 2m? of the neibhours boundry.....
that 21mph figure seems the worring aspect ....and not much in evidence any where earlier in the thread ? i could be wrong there though ... ???
edit...
if it is the case that thats the figure it could be running into overspeed.....either that or theres a bearing problem or stator rubbing which is clamping the rpm .....not an ideal situation either ...
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I am home working on yet more raised gardens.
We are having 10+ MPH gusts.
I just ran into my shed and watched as it cut into
My system which was running at 13.4 volts at the time!
So. . . Cut in MUST be around 10-12 mph.
The gusts I witnessed ran for about 5 minutes
And the my system I now sitting at 14.45 volts with
Gurds load dump control flashing away.
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It did it again.
But this time with the Doc Wattson on.
This time at 12mph for 15 seconds
It cut in over a 14.25 system
Generating 2.01AP
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:)
that sounds a whole lot better .....
with some discharge in the batt the cut in will be a bit lower as well.....maybe down to 7 or 8 mph
sounds much more normal .....nice ...
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Hurrah! Those electrons are finally moving!
Rgds
Damon
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This time at 12mph for 15 seconds
It cut in over a 14.25 system
Generating 2.01AP
That sounds MUCH better than 21 mph. You're pushing 30 watts or so into an almost fully charged battery bank @ 12 mph, which is right in the ballpark for a small turbine.
The other thing I was wondering about was them blades. Those are some experimental modified GOE222's that Dave whipped up. I wondered how noisy they are running at 250-300 rpm?
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Chris
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Chris-
The blades make no sound until just before cut in.
Then they begin to make a prolonged slight "whiiiissssssss" sound.
This "whiiissssssss" gets louder as the wind get stronger.
The sound is not a roar, no does it vibrate like a fan or a helecopter,
but more like a continuous snake hiss.
There is no "wheeooo-wheeooo-wheeooo" just silence and then the
"Whiissssss".
When the wind gust go up and down quickly it sounds
Like the sky is whispering, as if wind has a secret.
You can only hear it at 10 mph or more.
My neighbor says "the sound is strangely pleasant"!
Is there some scientific signifigence to why the blades can
Only be heard at cut in and over or is that just an rpm coincidence?
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Cool. I think Dave had the pitch on those at like 8 degrees instead of 10 like on the big GOE222's. I'd like to try a set of them on my latest direct drive MPPT turbine.
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Chris
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SF Reading your latest posts this leads me to think you may have actually produced more than the .08kwh
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Re read my last post I added to it.
Frank- I don't understand what you just told me
I'm techie retarded. Remember?
Please elaborate.
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The noise is due to tip speed ratio starting to drop as the blades get loaded, or starting working against load.
I think Steadfast got more than .08 kWh too. I'm betting the Doc got accidentally reset at some point. If you don't keep power and ground to the Doc Wattson 24/7 it won't retain it's logged data.
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Chris
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That reading of
"The cut in at 12mph for 15 seconds
It cut in over a 14.25 system
Generating 2.01AP"
Was literally recorded live 2 minutes or so after I
disconnected the doc from the solar and hooked it back up to the turbine
resetting it in the process.
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Yeah, every time you move the Doc from the turbiner to the solar it loses its logged data and resets. So if you want to log power for a whole month you have to either write it down before you disconnect it, or leave it hooked up for the whole month.
That .08 is 80 watt-hours, which you logged after the last time you moved it from one to the other.
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Chris
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Clearly my snap shot reading had more info then my monthly.
Tell me how to wright up a log and ill re record
It's progress over the next few weeks.
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You can take a piece of paper and make two columns on it, one for turbiner and one for solar. Then right down the kWh (or amp-hours, it doesn't make any difference) under each one, depending on what you got the Doc Wattson hooked to, each time before you reset it. Then add the columns up at the end of the month.
The only problem with this is that the solar panels might be putting out power while you got the Doc on the turbiner, or the turbiner could start up and run while the Doc is on the solar. So you would not get all the power logged because you can only log one at a time.
You could parallel the outputs of the solar and wind turbine and run them both thru the Doc Wattson simultaneously. Then you'd never have to disconnect it and it would retain the logged data. That won't tell you which one was which, but it would tell you how much total kWh you generated for the month.
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Chris
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I am never home during the day so getting "live" readings is hard.
Also...
My turbine is shy.
It stops moving as soon as I
Go into the shed to see the meters. EVERYTIME.
I BS you not. It the weirdest damn thing I've ever seen.
It been like this for over a year.
So, "snapshot" results like todays are as rare as unicorn horns.
I can probably do a daily recording and reset the doc
Everyday I come home and post the results here for the next few weeks.
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Who cares what the solar says!
I'll just hook up the Doc for wind results and reset it each day
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The thing is, if you leave it on just the turbine you don't have to reset it every day. It will hold its data as long as you keep power connected to it. So if you leave it hooked up to just the turbine for a whole month, at the end of the month it will show the kWh, amp-hours, and peak amps for that month. If you want to write down the readings every day to keep track of daily production, you can. But you don't have to reset it.
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Chris
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I'll try to give you guys a daily total every day for the next few weeks around 6:30 pm EST.
that way I can also give you guys the local daily wind reports as well.
Lets see what she can do.
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I'm betting that his turbine will probably show better than 5 KWh in a month's time even if it does have Anthropophobia just as long as it doesn't suffer from Ancraophobia
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And Anthropomorphism rears it ugly head...
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How about a 2nd Doc Watson?
Thurmond
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well, thanks for banning me for questioning what was so ''great'' about generating .08Kwh in an entire month - I hope it transpires that this figure is inaccurate
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SF if you are really out to learn just how much energy you are producing from both sources then Thurmond's idea of 2 DWs might be an easy answer you could do a real time comparison if sometime you had a strong wind but a cloudy overcast day or even a sunny one. Actually not a bad idea if budget allows you could still have your logging chart to write down your findings.
BTW I think all machines are possessed by a spirit of their own at times but hopefully friendly ones
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and if there is no money left in the pot just wire the one DW immediately after the rectifier - 2 wires in and 2 wires out - omitting the zero volts lines is an unnecessary complication here
if in fact it really did record a peak of 17 amps then that's (to borrow a word) great - but the monthly output is negligible
I don't suppose you've included any fuses or trips in the wiring before the DW ?
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SF
Don't think you are being singled out for the turbine stopping when you watch it. Just after I first put mine up we had a gale forecast. Just before midnight I went out into my shed and watched the amp meter, after about half an hour it slowly crept up to 5 amps. It was several storm later before I saw any real power and on a few occasions I watched it pin the meter to the end stop. I learned the hissing sound from the blades when it was working, and every time I heard the blade sing I ran to the shed, only to watch the amp meter settle back to zero.
The most annoying part was the trees about 50yds away at the end of my garden sounded like a jet taking off. The only time I get good output is if the wind is from the east.
There is a similar relationship between clouds and solar panels.
Brian
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Readings
Day 1
Today's wind, measured by a weather station 3 miles away,
Was 3MPH ave, with 6MPH gusts.
0.00 ap
No surprise.
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Readings
Day 2
Today's wind,
Was 5MPH ave, with 9MPH gusts.
0.00 ap
Once again.
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Readings
Day 3
Today's wind, as reported by benson nc weather station
Which is 3 miles away and accessible on the app "wind finder"
Was 8MPH ave,
with 15MPH gust around 10am, lasting 10 minutes.
2.18 ap recoded on the doc
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sf
I have simular luck with my 12 volt turbine. I have seen 16 amps but it never spins long and seems to take very strong wind to get to speed. It is below several tree tops. Part is probly location and part is probly bearing drag. Too much grease in a sealed bearing. What does AP mean? Amp peak?
Thanks
gww
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SF
Be ready for the wind St. Louis is getting tired of, was up on the roof when the 25 & 30 mph winds came through today. We're getting even higher this weekend seems Texas is tired of their wind and sending it our way.
Bummer that I don't even have one of Ed Lenz's teaching mills up anymore , would nice to see what those coming 60mph winds would do with it.
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Wind has been steady here at 16+ with gusts to 30 the last 3 days.
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i still think your small wire is killing your cut-in
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The reason I have not posted numbers over the last few days
Is because the reported wind gust speeds have been below 10MPH
from my "wind alert" app from the 2 nearest weather installations near my home.
Which is the case for today as well.
When the wind goes above 10MPH
I will report in.
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Correction.
Something must have happened today
Which the local weather station failed to record
Because the wind turbine is reporting
10.90 AP
0.2 AH.
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posting any numbers is always good Steadfast ..especially the bad ones .... :(
but...is this the "windy" season where you live ?...if the wind just isnt there , theres not much gain ....
looks like the mill hit 11 amps for a period .....thats fine , its ready to work ....just not enough consistent wind ...
i see hurricane wind has now moved into axial alts .....and in their vids they compare the light weight red delco to the new alt with a ..."heres the real beef " ... twist
maybe he,ll come back ..... :).....he might give a test mill
edit...no mention of blade sets to match with those axials that i can see :(
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Today we are sporting consistent 15 mph winds with gusts of 25mph
Can't wait to get home and report the numbers.
Yes I did reset the doc last night.
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ap on the doc is amps peak, and it might be for 1/10th of a second, kWh are what powers a home not peak amps.
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Days Results
18.77 ap
.08 ah
.02 kwh
Live reading just now!
235 watts
23.8 A
Over a 13.04v cut in
Wind gusts at 23 mph
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Those trees are killing you. Do you have a chainsaw? 8)
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The trees have nothing to do with it, if he rarely gets winds over 10 mph. There is little power in 5 mph winds.
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Live Results:
(https://www.fieldlines.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2Fc67.0.403.403%2Fp403x403%2F428239_519935261360690_322463025_n.jpg&hash=8610899936137a3eb30daed36eefbad412d69c89)
thats 127 watts
at least thats what i think it says.
But what does it MEAN?
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yep. At that moment, 14.33v x 8.87a = exactly 127.1 watts. Is the .7ah the total for the day?
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I just came in from the shed.
I had forgotten to reset the Doc
The display was alarming and cool
We had some 30+ MPH gusts.
2.9 ah
.04 kwh
25.54 ap
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So the turbine has hit over 350 watts. But you're not getting any energy production because the turbine is in a sheltered location on a short tower with turbulent wind thru the rotor. And unfortunately, that's one of the criteria for installing a wind turbine - to get the full potential from it it should be at least 30 feet above the highest obstacle within a 1/4 mile of it.
Also, taking wind readings from a nearby airport means nothing because airports are out in the open with the anemometer on a 10 meter pole. That is not representative of the wind you're getting thru your turbine rotor in a sheltered location in the trees. Although the local airport readings can be used as an indication of your local wind resource, you'd need to have your turbine located at the airport to actually use that wind unless you can get it up out of the trees where it is now.
So basically, you have seen the potential of the turbine when an occasional gust hits it. You have also seen how important it is to have a wind turbine in clean laminar air. If it was on a 90 foot tower it would more than likely be producing 250 watts continuous all day, with spikes over 400 on some of those windy days instead of just a burst now and then when some wind can get to it.
In conclusion on this thread, it was an educational experience not only for you (and admirable perseverance in not giving up after several failures, including a tower crash), but also provides great information for others who consider putting small turbines on short pipe towers in sheltered locations, that they just don't work. Sure, you can get some power from it, but nowhere near the full potential of the machine.
One of the key words with wind turbines is "wind". It takes wind to make one work. There is no power in light winds. Period. And this is why "low wind" turbines are a farce. Even big turbines do nothing but trickle charge a battery bank in light winds under 10 mph. My 3.5 meter (11.5 foot) diameter machines only produce 150 watts @ 10 mph. At 20 mph they are producing 1,080 watts. At 25 they are producing 2.0 kW. At 30 mph they are producing 3.1 kW running partially furled. Take those numbers and graph them on some graph paper and look at the curve you end up with. That will show you how important wind is in making a wind turbine work.
Thanks for a great and educational thread for all of us! You stuck with it and didn't give up when many others would have. Now all you need is a real tower to show all the other newbies what makes a wind turbine really work. We'll all be looking forward to the tower thread when you put up your new 90 footer 8)
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Chris
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If live to build one of those but alas I am bound to a 40ft ceiling in my county.
I sucks but that's the way it is.
If I was not bound by this ordinance I most certainly would have my bird up there.
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My turbine is on a 40' pole and it acts exactly like yours. 40' doesn't even get over my small trees.
cheers
gww
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If live to build one of those but alas I am bound to a 40ft ceiling in my county.
I sucks but that's the way it is.
If I was not bound by this ordinance I most certainly would have my bird up there.
Now that everybody is used to it add 20 ft nobody will notice, if they do, take it off.
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LOL, Let alone Care! At least most won't.. Possibly! ;)
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well what the ....its your land..if you dont mind a few trees topped off....?
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Apply for a variance to put in a 60 foot tower.
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DO NOT apply for anything, that was my problem, stay under the radar at all times. Like I said, put it up, if the jackasses say anything take it down, simple.
Government, especially local government is solely and simply in place to F you over, most board and commission members are uneducated morons when it comes to RE, and they have no intention of getting educated.
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I hate the thought of going to the government.
Apply for a variance to put in a 60 foot tower.
But before doing so it would be better to learn how receptive the council may be to things like that . without calling attention to yourself.
Another way would be to build a telescopic pole. This wouldn't be easy to make a completely hidden scoping system with a perfect positive height lock. also hidden. But doable.
That way could raise it a little at a time every month or so and probably no one would ever notice.
OR make a scoping pole and lay it down every couple of months to extend it a few feet.
The more people see things the less they notice. Trees are going to get taller each year
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These days not going to the government first can have them come in and say take it down permanently if he goes past 40 feet.
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Bravo to you guys!
Bravo!
The county inspector came by my home today to inspect my turbine!
He PASSED IT!
He said
"Sir I want to shake your hand for building the best turbine
I have ever seen. your work is meticulous and without flaw.
You are what we alwas hope to see but never do.
Thank you for making my job today so easy and fun!"
I could not have done it with out you guys!
Bravo! ;D
on another note:
from the numbers I gave you guys.
I need to know from someone (Chris?) what you guys think my bird's maximum output wattage could be...
if I lived in a perfect wind environment with a perfect tower.
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Hey, good result!
Sometimes those government types are helpful and nice to deal with. I'm having the pleasure of similarly positive responses from some of my local and national ones round here. Well, not quite as gushing as your feedback, but good enough for ... ahem ... government work!
Rgds
Damon
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My bet is he was an older guy, who knew what design was and could tell by merely looking BUT had to do his job anyway ;D
Now go put it up 20 feet higher ;).
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I gotta believe in good winds that would be about a 2000 watt machine IIRC.
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My wife shot a video of my turbine today
here is a link to the video
<iframe src="http://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=4820788968860" width="720" height="1280" frameborder="0"></iframe>
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Sorry about that
My wife needs to re-lable the video "public".
Which she assures me shed will do tonight.
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I need to know from someone (Chris?) what you guys think my bird's maximum output wattage could be...
if I lived in a perfect wind environment with a perfect tower.
It should be around 350-400 watts with maybe a few spikes up to 450 sometimes. On 12 volt at 400 watts you're pushing close to 30 amps, which IIRC is well over the maximum sustained amp capacity of your wiring.
--
Chris
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He said
"Sir I want to shake your hand for building the best turbine
I have ever seen. your work is meticulous and without flaw.
You are what we alwas hope to see but never do.
Thank you for making my job today so easy and fun!"
with regard to the previous post - exactly what did the ''Inspector'' inspect ?
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Yeah. I'm thankful that the only County Wind Turbine Inspector we got around these parts is me. The last thing we need is some dude that don't know the difference between a wind turbine and a water tower running around "inspecting" things. Somebody like that shows up on my place they're likely to be looking at the business end of a side-by-side 12 gauge.
--
Chris
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Here finally is the watchible version of my wife's video of the turbine.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=90Bfb1PuYyE#
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Bfb1PuYyE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Bfb1PuYyE)
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spinning at a pretty good clip there, just think if instead of a 40 ft tower and 60 ft trees it were the other way round 40 ft trees and a 60 ft tower . get a Husqvarna 316e then onetime when the wind is bending the trees plug it in and let the turbine have its revenge
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How right you are.
-Sigh-
Stupid county regulations!
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Almost none of us can go by the installers rule of thumb 500/30, five hundred feet away from and thirty feet above any turbulence causing object.
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Yet even more shameless showin off.